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vetran
30th April 2013, 08:38
Continued lack of women in tech bemoaned by ex-techie lady MP ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/30/insufficient_women_it_cwjobs/)


'Women would never have made automated supermarket tills'

idiot?

sasguru
30th April 2013, 08:47
She does have a point though: " ....it is imperative that ICT graduates from its current position as an exclusively male eccentricity.”

That's very true, IT is too important to be left in the hand of the weirdos, freaks, nutters, cretins and virgins who populate CUK.

doodab
30th April 2013, 08:48
I think she has a point, up to a point. Although surely if instead of a machine there is a woman is on the till that counts as a woman in ict?

proggy
30th April 2013, 08:49
She does have a point though: " ....it is imperative that ICT graduates from its current position as an exclusively male eccentricity.”

That's very true, IT is too important to be left in the hand of the weirdos, freaks, nutters, cretins and virgins who populate CUK.

Maybe CUK should be renamed to AspergersUK :nerd

Women, rightly, probably think working in software development means working with a bunch of smelly, socially awkward geeks who would lose all composure when confronted with a fairly attractive female.

MyUserName
30th April 2013, 09:03
Maybe CUK should be renamed to AspergersUK :nerd

Women, rightly, probably think working in software development means working with a bunch of smelly, socially awkward geeks who would lose all composure when confronted with a fairly attractive female.

Maybe in your world!

sasguru
30th April 2013, 09:05
Maybe CUK should be renamed to AspergersUK :nerd

Women, rightly, probably think working in software development means working with a bunch of smelly, socially awkward geeks who would lose all composure when confronted with a fairly attractive female.

Very true. I can count the number of technically good IT people who can also communicate at board level and have the social skills to network at the highest level on one hand. Actually I don't need a whole hand - apart from me there's only only one other person (who I'd say was not a technical bull-shitter) who I've seen who can do it.

doodab
30th April 2013, 09:08
Very true. I can count the number of technically good IT people who can also communicate at board level and have the social skills to network at the highest level on one hand. Actually I don't need a whole hand - apart from me there's only only one other person (who I'd say was not a technical bull-tulipter) who I've seen who can do it.

That's because what's needed at board level is a technical bullshitter who glosses over the details, and that doesn't make a technically good IT person.

The bigger problem IMO is that there are so few technically good people at board level.

proggy
30th April 2013, 09:11
That's because what's needed at board level is a technical bulltulipter who glosses over the details, and that doesn't make a technically good IT person.

The bigger problem IMO is that there are so few technically good people at board level.

And the reason is they would be laughed out of a board room, walking in with their star wars shirt and mumbling a few incoherent over technical comments.

original PM
30th April 2013, 09:14
only because the other board members would do this to cover their own hopeless inadequcies when it comes to understanding tech

my biggest gripe with our current exec team is that no one underatands technology so they come out with some great ideas - but they are technically infeasibkle

sasguru
30th April 2013, 09:23
That's because what's needed at board level is a technical bulltulipter who glosses over the details, and that doesn't make a technically good IT person.

The bigger problem IMO is that there are so few technically good people at board level.

Your first point is wrong and contradicted by your second which is correct.
We don't need technical bullshitters at board level (there are plenty of those already). We need good techies who can communicate important concepts in technical terms and have the balls, personality and credibility to put their view across.

You're right about there not being many of those.

vetran
30th April 2013, 09:24
Problem is you need someone technically good enough to know what is possible who is happy to hear lots of people banging on that its all IT's fault that yet again the system has failed to guess what parts they need without a decent forecast or release goods when the customer has a credit rating a Tramp would be embarrassed about.

What you get is people who say yes and drive new Audis while the people that butcher the systems to get it to do what they want and fix the after effects who drive beat up Fords.

The Board and the Audi Driver look down on the Ford drivers and blame them when their Grand plans fail due to lack of customer engagement.

Now interestingly enough in my family that was an even gender split the males all chose technical subjects but the females chose softer subjects. There was no expectation of gender specific roles in their raising.

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 09:40
Very true. I can Masturbate at the highest level using one hand. Actually I don't need a whole hand - just a couple of fingers.

FTFY

Of all the bulltulipping Bulltulipers, you really do talk some bulltulip...

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 09:45
Your first point is wrong and contradicted by your second which is correct.
We don't need technical bulltulipters at board level (there are plenty of those already). We need good techies who can communicate important concepts in technical terms and have the balls, personality and credibility to put their view across.

You're right about there not being many of those.

That's ahorse load of shite for a start.

What's needed at board level are good techies who can communicate important concepts in non-technical terms. Having the balls is a given, if you're already there putting your views across, or even being asked in.

The main problem is people who over complicate shit at board level. My last major permie role was with a software company headed up by 2 former Accountants (CEO and CFO). The Chief Technical Officer was not technical either, per se, coming from a lecturing background on the companys' niche area; knew shed loads about the subject matter, but not how to technically implement it.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 09:55
FTFY

Of all the bulltulipping Bulltulipers, you really do talk some bulltulip...

That's the other thing about techies. They imagine everyone is as crap as themselves. :laugh:laugh
Guess what, you smelly, sandal-wearing, hygienically challenged geek - I reported directly to the MD in my last (permie) role as where I created an analytics department from scratch.
I'm a suit who loves techie stuff and is good at it.
Not the sort of crappy dev stuff you do but the stuff that requires hard maths: Bayesian stats, HE modelling, that kind of stuff.

doodab
30th April 2013, 09:59
We don't need technical bulltulipters at board level (there are plenty of those already).

That's what I was getting at. It's a self policing clique.


We need good techies who can communicate important concepts in technical terms and have the balls, personality and credibility to put their view across.

These people exist. The trouble is they frequently end up trying to communicate important concepts in technical terms to people who lack both the background to understand and the time or motivation to listen to proper explanations.

I recently had to explain something to a fairly senior chap* at a very large IT services provider (essentially because some middle manager had decided there was a problem where no problem existed) and however many times and ways I tried to explain that distributing n things between n-1 boxes would result in at least one of the boxes having more than one thing in it, he just couldn't grasp it. I even gave a physical demo with pens, and he appeared to get it, except that he then proceeded to ask "so how are we going to stop it happening then"?

You can't explain something to someone who doesn't want to understand.

*doddering old fart

vetran
30th April 2013, 10:00
old hack, stop poking SasGuru.

It's cruel.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 10:01
old hack, stop poking SasGuru.

It's cruel.

It's like being licked by a dead sheep.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 10:14
What's needed at board level are good techies who can communicate important concepts in non-technical terms. .

That, at least, is correct. I meant non-technical.

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 10:15
That's the other thing about techies. They imagine everyone is as crap as themselves. :laugh:laugh
Guess what, you smelly, sandal-wearing, hygienically challenged geek - I reported directly to the MD in my last (permie) role as where I created an analytics department from scratch.
I'm a suit who loves techie stuff and is good at it.
Not the sort of crappy dev stuff you do but the stuff that requires hard maths: Bayesian stats, HE modelling, that kind of stuff.

Oh dear, I thought you had trouble squeezing one out, but I was wrong.

You have no idea what I do you fool, no idea at all. If you did, you'd wind that chicken neck of yours in.

I'd love to tell you, just to shut you up, but I fear the only thing guaranteed to do that, would be a good smack in your mouth.

I work at all levels Sas, as do heaps here.

Your stupidity knows no bounds.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 10:19
Oh dear, I thought you had trouble squeezing one out, but I was wrong.

You have no idea what I do you fool, no idea at all. If you did, you'd wind that chicken neck of yours in.

I'd love to tell you, just to shut you up, but I fear the only thing guaranteed to do that, would be a good smack in your mouth.

I work at all levels Sas, as do heaps here.

Your stupidity knows no bounds.

And there you have it. The comms skills of a typical techie.
:laugh:laugh
So what great rocket science do you work in O great one?:rollin::rollin:

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 10:28
And there you have it. The comms skills of a typical techie.
:laugh:laugh
So what great rocket science do you work in O great one?:rollin::rollin:

Honestly sas, you come on here every day belittling everyone else's intellect, when you really should be having a look in the mirror.

It's actually sad.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 10:32
Honestly sas, you come on here every day belittling everyone else's intellect, when you really should be having a look in the mirror.

It's actually sad.

I don't belittle everyone's intellect. There are plenty of people on here I admire for various reasons.
Anyway can you tell us what you do? I'm curious since you imply it must be some kind of rocket science that would put me to shame.

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 10:35
I don't belittle everyone's intellect. There are plenty of people on here I admire for various reasons.
Anyway can you tell us what you do? I'm curious since you imply it must be some kind of rocket science that would put me to shame.

I am not delving into that thanks ass, I work in a niche area, with DV clearance. Suffice I am not going to piss that against the wall to satisfy your insecurities.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 10:37
FTFY

Of all the bulltulipping Bulltulipers, you really do talk some bulltulip...


...insecurities.


You seem to be the one with the insecurities. I'm not surprised given your communication skills.
That's why SB can always make you froth at the mouth.

shaunbhoy
30th April 2013, 10:38
I work in a niche area, with DV clearance.

He means he lifts the barrier at the front gates of G4S sas. But keep it under your hat.......walls have ears etc.

:laugh

sasguru
30th April 2013, 10:40
He means he lifts the barrier at the front gates of G4S sas. But keep it under your hat.......walls have ears etc.

:laugh

:laugh:laugh

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 10:40
You seem to be the one with the insecurities. I'm not surprised given your communication skills.

None at all Ass, none at all thanks. I just find it funny that you come on here bull tulipping all day, telling everyone how clever you are, how much more clever you are than anyone else, that you have got this, done that, and everyone else is thick. Honestly, have you heard of projection, for you stink of it.

My communication skills are just fine ass, for you tend to operate to the lowest common denominator; something you'd know if you really were capable of communicating at all levels.

northernladuk
30th April 2013, 10:41
Strange thing is I am sitting here thinking back over the last 10 years mix of permie and contracting and in the last 5 years all my client managers/managers have all been women and can count on one hand the number of male bosses I have had in all that time.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 10:41
Some complete guff.

It's like a terrier barking and with a similar significance.

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 10:42
...and the lowest common denominator rocks up on time again.

Perfect timing fat boy.

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 10:45
It's like a terrier barking and with a similar significance.

You see, that just makes no sense at all; you're always full of ad hominem nonsense when you're crossed. Can't you see how that looks, if you really are as bright as you like to think you are?

Projection. Honestly, you reek of it.

northernladuk
30th April 2013, 10:49
Although saying that it does make me feel uncomfortable when they are changing stuff in favour of women....

Google crafts algorithms to get more women in more positions ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/24/google_women_retention_data/)

There is a fine line between encouraging women and discrimination.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 10:51
Honestly, have you heard of projection, for you stink of it.
.


Projection. Honestly, you reek of it.

Oh dear it's gone into an infinite loop - something wrong with the bot's algorithm, shirley:

:laugh:laugh:laugh

shaunbhoy
30th April 2013, 11:00
Oh dear it's gone into an infinite loop - something wrong with the bot's algorithm, shirley:

:laugh:laugh:laugh

I'm just waiting for endless repetitions of "son" and then we'll know that all of the wheels have come off!

:laugh

Honestly, if brains were made of dynamite he wouldn't have enough to part his hair!

:spank:

sasguru
30th April 2013, 11:03
I'm just waiting for endless repetitions of "son" and then we'll know that all of the wheels have come off!

:laugh

Honestly, if brains were made of dynamite he wouldn't have enough to part his hair!

:spank:

Yes he does seem generally to mistake repetition for wit. :laugh:laugh

doodab
30th April 2013, 11:06
Although saying that it does make me feel uncomfortable when they are changing stuff in favour of women....

Google crafts algorithms to get more women in more positions ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/24/google_women_retention_data/)

There is a fine line between encouraging women and discrimination.


It's hoping its vaunted data-crunching prowess can help it bring in more women.

Sounds like geeks everywhere...

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 11:34
Yes he does seem generally to mistake repetition for wit. :laugh:laugh

Not at all ass, I am just flabbergasted you can't see it, with your superior intellect :laugh

I genuinely, genuinely think you're a bit touched ass, as all you do, is come on here, to call people names, much like SB here, and that speaks volumes about you as a person. I like a bit of a discussion, but with you, it's impossible, for the moment someone calls you, you then call them names. My kids are better at it than you.

If you were as good as you say you are, you'd not been on here night and day. That's just the sad truth.

sasguru
30th April 2013, 12:10
Not at all ass, I am just flabbergasted you can't see it, with your superior intellect :laugh

I genuinely, genuinely think you're a bit touched ass, as all you do, is come on here, to call people names, much like SB here, and that speaks volumes about you as a person. I like a bit of a discussion, but with you, it's impossible, for the moment someone calls you, you then call them names. My kids are better at it than you.

If you were as good as you say you are, you'd not been on here night and day. That's just the sad truth.

Still here?
Jeez you're such a dullard, must be a laugh a minute at your local with you after a couple of shandies.
:laugh:laugh

sasguru
30th April 2013, 12:20
None at all Ass, none at all thanks. .


Not at all ass.... ass....

Oi who programmed this bot, son? It's broken again, son. Son, son ....
ass...ass....ass.
Not at all, Not at all Not at all .......

Old Hack
30th April 2013, 20:41
Still here?
Jeez you're such a dullard, must be a laugh a minute at your local with you after a couple of shandies.
:laugh:laugh

And there you go again, can't discuss like an adult, so out come the little insults. Honestly, do you learn this from your kid ass?

You're showing the intellect of an arse, and it's apt.

bobspud
30th April 2013, 22:57
We don't need technical bulltulipters at board level (there are plenty of those already). We need good techies who can communicate important concepts in technical terms and have the balls, personality and credibility to put their view across.

You're right about there not being many of those.

I know. That's how I make my living these days :wink

Wanderer
1st May 2013, 00:09
'Women would never have made automated supermarket tills'

That's probably why not many women work in IT..... :wink

One of the comments sums it up to me: Equality is not always about equal quantity

shaunbhoy
1st May 2013, 09:06
You're showing the intellect of an arse, and it's apt.

Indeed. Especially if he wants to remain on a level with you.
It is either that or use pictures to explain things to you!

:wink

mudskipper
1st May 2013, 09:53
That's probably why not many women work in IT..... :wink

One of the comments sums it up to me: Equality is not always about equal quantity

And the response to that remark:


I'd suggest rather that some jobs have a cultural tendency to attract more of one gender than the other. I strongly believe that cultural norms and peer pressure can trump biology and genetics in almost every case of workplace gender bias.

So if it's culture rather than aptitude that's putting women off, shouldn't that be addressed?

I've got along fine in IT, but I've always had a tendency to be 'one of the lads'. My girly friend has had a much tougher time of it.

MyUserName
1st May 2013, 09:56
And the response to that remark:



So if it's culture rather than aptitude that's putting women off, shouldn't that be addressed?

I've got along fine in IT, but I've always had a tendency to be 'one of the lads'. My girly friend has had a much tougher time of it.

In what way?

mudskipper
1st May 2013, 10:07
In what way?

She says she feels, for example, that in a team discussion her opinion seems to count for less than that of her male colleagues. She might be right. Her posture, manner etc are perhaps less confident/aggressive than the boys.

It's not something I've ever encountered (apart from in my first job where I was told that "crawling around under floors is not a suitable job for a young lady"!)

d000hg
1st May 2013, 10:17
Google crafts algorithms to get more women in more positionsBut which positions? Reverse cow-girl?

vetran
1st May 2013, 10:33
She says she feels, for example, that in a team discussion her opinion seems to count for less than that of her male colleagues. She might be right. Her posture, manner etc are perhaps less confident/aggressive than the boys.

It's not something I've ever encountered (apart from in my first job where I was told that "crawling around under floors is not a suitable job for a young lady"!)

This may well be much of her problem

Creating a Powerful Personal Presence to Influence and Engage (http://www.amanet.org/training/articles/Creating-a-Powerful-Personal-Presence-to-Influence-and-Engage.aspx)

If you can't guess I'm :

––“Brilliant. But not well liked. Just doesn’t connect with people.”
––“Doesn’t always use the appropriate language—too flippant, too laid back.”
––“Comes on too strong. Too intense. Needs to dial it back.”
––Too intense. High strung. Makes people uncomfortable.”
-–“Rambles. Knows her stuff, but gets off track and down in the weeds too easily.”

and working on it.

Seen real Girly Girls having people in the palm of their hands with far superior people skills. Technically they were mediocre (and quite willing to admit it). They were all fairly senior. They tend to use me for technical advice but don't let me rumble on.

Lets be honest most men prefer to listen to an attractive woman talking at a level they understand than a fat balding geek droning on.

MyUserName
1st May 2013, 11:06
She says she feels, for example, that in a team discussion her opinion seems to count for less than that of her male colleagues. She might be right. Her posture, manner etc are perhaps less confident/aggressive than the boys.

Does she have any evidence that her opinion counts for less or it just her feeling?
Then isn't this due to her being less confident than her colleagues rather than her gender?


For comparison, although this is not a work story ... it is about sword fighting again (sorry but it is relevant, honest) . There is a gentleman on the full contact scene whom is considered to be awesome and regularly spoken about in reverence and it is considered to be very unlucky to be drawn against him, I have fought him and thrashed him (not just beaten but THRASHED, he failed to hit me and I hit him every time I tried) but somehow no one seems to remember it and still talks of how awesome he is.

There is a tournament in August and the group running it might be recalling one of their sword experts who currently lives in Eastern Europe, people have mentioned that he is returning and how it will be a serious issue as he is fantastic etc - I have fought this man many times (he used to live near me and we trained at the same group), he makes no secret of the fact that I am comfortably better than him with a sword but no one seems to be interested in this. Some of the people who tell me how good he is used to train with us when he was there and would have seen me beating him.

I am not sure exactly why I seem to leave absolustely no impression on people but I am generally quite modest and do not boast or brag so I assume that is what causes it.

Is your friend doing the same? She might be very good but if no one knows then she might need to draw a bit more attention to things she does well?

vetran
1st May 2013, 11:13
Does she have any evidence that her opinion counts for less or it just her feeling?


Is your friend doing the same? She might be very good but if no one knows then she might need to draw a bit more attention to things she does well?

Good point, its difficult to talk confidently unless you feel confident.




I am not sure exactly why I seem to leave absolustely no impression on people but I am generally quite modest and do not boast or brag so I assume that is what causes it.

Hark at him :grin

Old Hack
1st May 2013, 11:31
Indeed. Especially if he wants to remain on a level with you.
It is either that or use pictures to explain things to you!

:wink

Oh, the ironing from the self proclaimed king of the smillies ;)

mudskipper
1st May 2013, 12:08
Does she have any evidence that her opinion counts for less or it just her feeling?
Then isn't this due to her being less confident than her colleagues rather than her gender?


For comparison, although this is not a work story ... it is about sword fighting again (sorry but it is relevant, honest) . There is a gentleman on the full contact scene whom is considered to be awesome and regularly spoken about in reverence and it is considered to be very unlucky to be drawn against him, I have fought him and thrashed him (not just beaten but THRASHED, he failed to hit me and I hit him every time I tried) but somehow no one seems to remember it and still talks of how awesome he is.

There is a tournament in August and the group running it might be recalling one of their sword experts who currently lives in Eastern Europe, people have mentioned that he is returning and how it will be a serious issue as he is fantastic etc - I have fought this man many times (he used to live near me and we trained at the same group), he makes no secret of the fact that I am comfortably better than him with a sword but no one seems to be interested in this. Some of the people who tell me how good he is used to train with us when he was there and would have seen me beating him.

I am not sure exactly why I seem to leave absolustely no impression on people but I am generally quite modest and do not boast or brag so I assume that is what causes it.

Is your friend doing the same? She might be very good but if no one knows then she might need to draw a bit more attention to things she does well?

Quite possibly. But her perception is that it's because of her gender. So her gender's definitely relevant, even if only to her.

xoggoth
1st May 2013, 18:43
Always seemed to be the case that women do not go for techie jobs. When I did my engineering degree umpteen yonks ago there was only one but they were overrepresented in stuff like social studies and pharmacy. I doubt they were excluded from pure science and engineering courses, they just didn't seem interested in doing them.

SueEllen
1st May 2013, 18:59
Although saying that it does make me feel uncomfortable when they are changing stuff in favour of women....

Google crafts algorithms to get more women in more positions ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/24/google_women_retention_data/)

There is a fine line between encouraging women and discrimination.

You didn't read the article did you?

Men and women communicate differently.

Women don't feel the need to boast so if you aren't use to interviewing women or haven't been let down by a bullshitter, you need to change the way you ask questions.

SueEllen
1st May 2013, 19:08
Always seemed to be the case that women do not go for techie jobs. When I did my engineering degree umpteen yonks ago there was only one but they were overrepresented in stuff like social studies and pharmacy. I doubt they were excluded from pure science and engineering courses, they just didn't seem interested in doing them.

I knew a few women doing engineering degrees at uni.

Most of them worked out either just before graduation or within 2 years of working they would get more money becoming an accountant in the UK.

Also if you want your daughter to do a technical or engineering degree you actually have to take time out to do such stuff at home with her. Most fathers don't.

Then you have to convince her she will get a better wage with a job in one of those areas. Again most fathers don't.

They want their kids to be happy so let them do any tulip at uni without advising them so they end up unemployed afterwards.