Working extra hours / days

[someltd]

Newbie here so go gentle please.

I've done as much reading as my brain can cope, but unable to find anything about this particular situation.

I am contracting to a big client and there are two contractors and two permies who are involved in this work. The two permies currently work very long hours - somewhere around 10-12 hours most days, and at least one weekend day a week, they get no overtime for this at all.

I haven't yet been asked yet, but I expect it's only a matter of time, to work some weekend days, and some late evenings, but I should be able to negotiate a later start for t hose - my clients agreement with their client is to provide testing support between certain hours - until around 8pm.

My question is, given that the permies are doing all this work for free - they aren't getting any time off in return etc. If I was to also do the work for free, would that make me look much more like an employee than a business? I see that most of the threads are regarding permies getting PAID overtime thus a contractor shouldn't expect to get paid. This is the inverse though.

Secondly, my contract states £xxx/day day=7.5hours, I assume that if I'm asked to work or agree to work a weekend I should be invoicing them on my time record for the additional days and there should be no issue? My contract is via an agency.

Thanks

[BlasterBates]

Don't be put off by permies working extra hours, this is probably their own decision. My experience is doing long hours is unproductive, except maybe for short periods.

Just keep to your hours and if they ask demand more money or take time off in lieu. Permies get bonuses, career progression and pay rises to compensate; as a contractor you'll probably be gone next year so there's no point in trying to impress.

As long as you do a good job the worst that can happen is that they don't renew at some point, and "big deal".

[someltd]

About what I thought - thanks for confirming this.

As I work in a much more of a support role than a project based role (although I am working specifically on a project) the whole "as long as you get the work done, it doesn't matter what hours you work" line doesn't really work here.

[Bellona]

my contract states £xxx/day day=7.5hours, I assume that if I'm asked to work or agree to work a weekend I should be invoicing them on my time record for the additional days and there should be no issue? My contract is via an agency.

Thanks

As a permie senior manager, 50 hours plus, with non payment for anything over and above my core hours of 37.5 was expected at peak / difficult times, and most permie contracts have a clause along the lines of " plus reasonable additional hours as may be necessary " : which of course can affect things like performance reviews , bonuses etc.

You are not a permie - this does not apply.

Your contract states what they are paying for - if they want additional hours/ days then negotiate a rate with them, get agreement in writing, then bill for it.

A couple of hours accumulated here and there for goodwill is one thing, evening / weekend work is another matter. DO NOT WORK FOR FREE

[DirtyDog]

Secondly, my contract states £xxx/day day=7.5hours, I assume that if I'm asked to work or agree to work a weekend I should be invoicing them on my time record for the additional days and there should be no issue? My contract is via an agency.

If the situation arises where you are going to be working outside the norm, then make sure you get clarity on this from both the client and the agency, in writing.

The last thing you want to do is to give it away, thinking you'll get it paid, and then find out that you won't. Don't fall for someone saying "oh yeah, we'll sort something out..." and then not getting it paid. Working weekends is easier, but you will be expected to charge a normal day (in my experience); working late less so, especially if you aren't on an hourly rate.

Don't feel bad about not working the extra hours and days - you're in business now, it's nothing personal. If they were engaging a consultancy to do the work, you'd bet that they would stump up the extra, so why not for the independent consultant?

[someltd]

Thanks for all the replies. Makes me feel a bit more sure about what is and isn't acceptable.

There is talk of introducing a rota system between the 4 of us to cover early morning to evening, thus avoiding the extra hours during the week issue - from an IR35 perspective would there be any concerns over this? I was thinking in the Control aspect as I am having to work "set hours", but there is a justifiable business need as they need to match the requirements of their client?

Thanks

[DirtyDog]

Thanks for all the replies. Makes me feel a bit more sure about what is and isn't acceptable.

There is talk of introducing a rota system between the 4 of us to cover early morning to evening, thus avoiding the extra hours during the week issue - from an IR35 perspective would there be any concerns over this? I was thinking in the Control aspect as I am having to work "set hours", but there is a justifiable business need as they need to match the requirements of their client?

Thanks

It's not a question of control, it's a question of whether there is any chance that you could do the work at any other time.

Since there isn't any way you can control this, then I wouldn't worry about it being an IR35 pointer.

[vwdan]

As a permie senior manager, 50 hours plus, with non payment for anything over and above my core hours of 37.5 was expected at peak / difficult times, and most permie contracts have a clause along the lines of " plus reasonable additional hours as may be necessary " : which of course can affect things like performance reviews , bonuses etc.

You really feel an extra 2.5 hours per day above what they're paid for is "reasonable"?

[kal]

You really feel an extra 2.5 hours per day above what they're paid for is "reasonable"?

Not in my book, previous place I was at was up against it with deadlines and requested that all contractors either did an extra 1.5 hrs a day or came in on Saturday until release, we all went for option 1 and they agreed that as we were on a daily rate we could book it as working on Saturday.

Don't do it for gratis as then you are in effect then taking a pay cut.

[someltd]

It's not a question of control, it's a question of whether there is any chance that you could do the work at any other time.

Since there isn't any way you can control this, then I wouldn't worry about it being an IR35 pointer.

Sounds sensible.

Cheers for putting me at ease.