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sasguru
14th March 2014, 10:25
In a nutshell: the party of old, thick, men.

How UKIP voters compare (http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/03/05/analysis-ukip-voters/)

oracleslave
14th March 2014, 10:32
In a nutshell: the party of old, thick, men.



Possibly, but there's a dearth of anyone of substance or any "like-ability" factor anywhere else ( Ed Milliband is completely devoid of personality or inspiration and people feel like Cameron and Clegg have screwed up their chance) which is why UKIP with their 12% and growing are likely to be extremely influential in the local elections.

Personally, I refuse to vote for any of them.

KentPhilip
14th March 2014, 10:36
Oi, who are you calling old!
:rolleyes:

mos
14th March 2014, 10:44
which is why UKIP with their 12% and growing are likely to be extremely influential in the local elections.

I agree that other parties would benefit from fresh faces on the candidate menu.

Personally I believe that it would be most beneficial in the long run if UKiP attained power. Its the only way to effectively discredit them in the eyes of the great unwashed.:music:

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 10:46
In a nutshell: the party of old, thick, men.

How UKIP voters compare (http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/03/05/analysis-ukip-voters/)

To my slight shame, I play chess competitively from time to time. I turned up at a typically shabby match venue to find two very elderly ladies and one very elderly man effectively barking at each other in a corridor. One of the ladies turned to me and said, 'Are you here for the UKIP branch meeting?' She looked so crestfallen when I said no that I almost felt sorry enough to attend their meeting.

mos
14th March 2014, 10:50
To my slight shame, I play chess competitively from time to time. I turned up at a typically shabby match venue to find two very elderly ladies and one very elderly man effectively barking at each other in a corridor. One of the ladies turned to me and said, 'Are you here for the UKIP branch meeting?' She looked so crestfallen when I said no that I almost felt sorry enough to attend their meeting.

And you did not attend ? How ungentlemanly of you :cry1:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3tQbeuFtPQ

vetran
14th March 2014, 10:52
I agree that other parties would benefit from fresh faces on the candidate menu.

Personally I believe that it would be most beneficial in the long run if UKiP attained power. Its the only way to effectively discredit them in the eyes of the great unwashed.:music:

it took the lib dems 30 years and they only got a slight sniff of power.

I doubt they will get a majority for a while. But they may well destabilise the Tory vote, which is a pity we will get the spend and squander party back.

darmstadt
14th March 2014, 10:53
In a nutshell: the party of old, thick, men.

How UKIP voters compare (http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/03/05/analysis-ukip-voters/)

Well that explains KP's trip to the seedy streets of Thailand...

mos
14th March 2014, 10:54
it took the lib dems 30 years and they only got a slight sniff of power.

I doubt they will get a majority for a while. But they may well destabilise the Tory vote, which is a pity we will get the spend and squander party back.

I am not much of an expert but do you think that UKiPCon class 2015 is a possibility ?

vetran
14th March 2014, 11:05
I am not much of an expert but do you think that UKiPCon class 2015 is a possibility ?

unless the entire shadow cabinet get caught in bed together with a herd of shetland ponies in suspenders I doubt it.

mos
14th March 2014, 11:09
unless the entire shadow cabinet get caught in bed together with a herd of shetland ponies in suspenders I doubt it.

On the other hand, such revelation would actually help UKiP vote, no?

sasguru
14th March 2014, 11:10
it took the lib dems 30 years and they only got a slight sniff of power.

I doubt they will get a majority for a while..

But the Lib Dems always had a young, well-educated voting profile.
UKIP's old profile means that once their current supporters die off, they'll probably wither and die too.
Unless they can get someone who appeals to young voters - Farage appeals to a certain type of old provincial.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 11:13
Anyway the current state of affairs is such that Vote UKIP = Get Milliband.
No doubt the Tories will use that effectively come election time.
I reckon UKIP will do well in the Euro election and may win it, but in the "proper" election people will go back to the main parties.

vetran
14th March 2014, 11:15
On the other hand, such revelation would actually help UKiP vote, no?

that's my point its about the only thing that will, they are leeching the conservative vote. The core voters (the- I always vote labour like my father & grandfather) for any party don't tend to change much, its the ones that actually consider who to vote for that UKIP are taking.

I live in a Labour ward, they can put up a chimp in a red rosette and they would win, in other wards a chimp with a blue rosette would always win.

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 11:15
But the Lib Dems always had a young, well-educated voting profile.
UKIP's old profile means that once their current supporters die off, they'll probably wither and die too.
Unless they can get someone who appeals to young voters - Farage appeals to a certain type of old provincial.

On a plus note, UKIP have peeled the soft racist vote away from the fascist BNP, and for all their faults UKIP are a democratic non-fascist party.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 11:18
On a plus note, UKIP have peeled the soft racist vote away from the fascist BNP, and for all their faults UKIP are a democratic non-fascist party.

The best person at doing that was Thatcher. She peeled away the soft racist vote from the NF, while still getting rich Asians to donate to the Tories and vote Tory. :laugh:laugh

Quite an achievement, whatever you think of her.

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 11:19
The best person at doing that was Thatcher. She peeled away the soft racist vote from the NF, while still getting rich Asians to donate to the Tories and vote Tory. :laugh:laugh

Quite an achievement, whatever you think of her.

Yes, Thatcher absolutely stopped the growth of the NF.

darmstadt
14th March 2014, 11:22
The question you need to ask yourself is, when you vote UKIP what are you voting for? As Farage has said, he threw away their 2010 manifesto because it was 'drivel' and so far they have not proposed a new one although they do have a number of 'policies.' This means that when you do vote for them, you don't actually know what you're voting for, they have no accountability. Now I know that all of the other parties renege on their manifesto, up to a point, and do things which weren't in there in the first place but at least the average voter can point to that and say that they lied.

vetran
14th March 2014, 11:24
Anyway the current state of affairs is such that Vote UKIP = Get Milliband.
No doubt the Tories will use that effectively come election time.
I reckon UKIP will do well in the Euro election and may win it, but in the "proper" election people will go back to the main parties.

I fear that is the case. The best we can hope for is that UKIP revitalise the other parties and force discussion on the EU & Immigration.

Sort of agree about the age thing they don't really have an entry route for the young, to be against a European superstate you need to be more realist than idealist so not attractive to the young maybe UKIP can hire Miley Cyrus?

TheFaQQer
14th March 2014, 11:24
I live in a Labour ward, they can put up a chimp in a blue rosette and they would win, in other wards a chimp with a blue rosette would always win.

Sounds like blue rosettes are the way forwards if they always win.

vetran
14th March 2014, 11:26
Sounds like blue rosettes are the way forwards if they always win.

oops, typo. - ta

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 11:26
Sounds like blue rosettes are the way forwards if they always win.

In combination with a chimp.

MicrosoftBob
14th March 2014, 11:28
unless the entire shadow cabinet get caught in bed together with a herd of shetland ponies in suspenders I doubt it.

If it was Ed Milliband it might improve his electability, just from the the shock he actually has real world experience of something outside of politics...

sasguru
14th March 2014, 11:28
The question you need to ask yourself is, when you vote UKIP what are you voting for? As Farage has said, he threw away their 2010 manifesto because it was 'drivel' and so far they have not proposed a new one although they do have a number of 'policies.' This means that when you do vote for them, you don't actually know what you're voting for, they have no accountability. Now I know that all of the other parties renege on their manifesto, up to a point, and do things which weren't in there in the first place but at least the average voter can point to that and say that they lied.

UKIP know what they don't like but not what they like.
They don't like Europe but recoil at stronger links with the darkies/yellows in India and China.
They don't like globalisation but have no coherent policy to deal with its reality.
They want a strong armed forces but they haven't explained why since they think money shouldn't be spent on foreign wars.
They claim they'll spend more money at home but don't explain where it'll come from.
etc. etc.

That's why only the thick will vote for them.

MicrosoftBob
14th March 2014, 11:29
Anyway the current state of affairs is such that Vote UKIP = Get Milliband.
No doubt the Tories will use that effectively come election time.
I reckon UKIP will do well in the Euro election and may win it, but in the "proper" election people will go back to the main parties.

The same could be said in reverse Vote Conservative = Get Milliband

They have no chance of winning alone

MicrosoftBob
14th March 2014, 11:30
On a plus note, UKIP have peeled the soft racist vote away from the Labour party, and for all their faults UKIP are a democratic non-fascist party.

FTFY

darmstadt
14th March 2014, 11:37
UKIP know what they don't like but not what they like.
They don't like Europe but recoil at stronger links with the darkies/yellows in India and China.
They don't like globalisation but have no coherent policy to deal with its reality.
They want a strong armed forces but they haven't explained why since they think money shouldn't be spent on foreign wars.
They claim they'll spend more money at home but don't explain where it'll come from.
etc. etc.

That's why only the thick will vote for them.

What will also be interesting is that the forthcoming elections are also local elections and not just for Europe and it would be nice to hear what UKIP candidates who are standing only as local candidates have to say. I wonder if they know that they are there to represent the local electorate for local issues or will they bang on about Europe which is not their remit?

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 13:11
The same could be said in reverse Vote Conservative = Get Milliband

They have no chance of winning alone

UKIP will fail in a General Election because of the 1st past the post system. But the votes they attract will leave the Tories in a very uncomfortable politically squeezed position. Whichever way they veer, they lose supporters.

oracleslave
14th March 2014, 13:15
UKIP will fail in a General Election because of the 1st past the post system. But the votes they attract will leave the Tories in a very uncomfortable politically squeezed position. Whichever way they veer, they lose supporters.

Never mind that. How good are you really at chess?

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 13:16
Never mind that. How good are you really at chess?

I'll PM you an invite to a game if you like. No engines and no tablebases.

oracleslave
14th March 2014, 13:17
I'll PM you an invite to a game if you like. No engines and no tablebases.

Ok. Am on chess.com if that helps.

I don't do engines

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 13:21
Ok. Am on chess.com if that helps.

I don't do engines

I don't do chess.com but will set up an account.

Peoplesoft bloke
14th March 2014, 13:53
Did anyone actually read the Yougov stuff?

Only 60% of UKIP support comes from former Tories.

As to the Vote X get Y stuff, because of our cockarsed electoral system, in most constituencies it won't matter who you vote for, the incumbent party will win, only the marginals make a difference, and even then, it's extremely rare to have a 3 (or more) way marginal, so for example in a LIB/CON marginal where LAB normally poll 5-10% of the vote, voting UKIP ain't gonna get you a LAB MP.

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 13:58
Did anyone actually read the Yougov stuff?

Only 60% of UKIP support comes from former Tories.

As to the Vote X get Y stuff, because of our cockarsed electoral system, in most constituencies it won't matter who you vote for, the incumbent party will win, only the marginals make a difference, and even then, it's extremely rare to have a 3 (or more) way marginal, so for example in a LIB/CON marginal where LAB normally poll 5-10% of the vote, voting UKIP ain't gonna get you a LAB MP.

60% is very significant. CBA to do the sums but this may have a huge effect just on the electoral maths in Tory held or Tory target marginals.

Other considerations:

UKIP may shift the Tories - policy and local candidates - away from the centre, where received wisdom states that elections are won.

UKIP may have an effect on diminishing the local activist base, which is to the right of the Tory party and fervently anti-EU, by and large.

mos
14th March 2014, 13:59
Did anyone actually read the Yougov stuff?

Yougov is Zahawi's toy. I do not trust their polls.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 14:03
Yougov is Zahawi's toy. I do not trust their polls.

You've got some evidence that their statistical methodology is suspect or is this another example of your low IQ paranoia ?

mos
14th March 2014, 14:07
UKIP may have an effect on diminishing the local activist base, which is to the right of the Tory party and fervently anti-EU, by and large.

It depends on who the activists are :nazi:. It would be good if they showed their faces more.
At present they tend to hide behind the keyboards of Daily Wail and Telegraph blogs :poke: and terrify more sensitive women and children who happened to stray to those websites. :cry2::igmc:

d000hg
14th March 2014, 14:28
because of our cockarsed electoral system, in most constituencies it won't matter who you vote for, the incumbent party will winThey win BECAUSE people vote for them, you make it sound like they win by magic. Every MP gets in because they get the most votes in their constituency, of course.

ZARDOZ
14th March 2014, 14:29
Nigel Farrage held a meeting in my local town in the North West. I'm not a UKIP voter, but it was just around the corner from me and wanted to see what the fuss was about and if they could generate any local interest. I was also suspicous of how UKIP is being painted by some.

The town is a CON/LAB marginal. I was quite shocked by how many people were there, was standing room only.

A show of hands indicated about 70% of the audience weren't previously UKIP voters or members.

First thing he said "If you are expecting me to bash foreigners you can leave now". Other than a bit about rights to claim benefits there was nothing about immigration. There were some 2nd generation immigrants in the audience!

Labour had planted some smug stooges in the audience to ask some (as they thought) difficult questions, Farrage remained good humoured but brushed them aside very adeptly. Seems Labour are VERY worried and are adopting this tactic everywhere they can.

Farrage himself is a very impressive and charismatic orator

Didn't really get much into policies other than EU vote, Rescinding green taxes, trading with commonwealth countries rather than EU.

He recieved a standing ovation.


Left feeling they will be a MAJOR political force if they develop their policies some more. Can't say I would vote for them....yet.

Doggy Styles
14th March 2014, 14:30
UKIP's old profile means that once their current supporters die off, they'll probably wither and die too. Ah, no.

If age is the yardstick, it's the demographic rather than specific people, and churn happens. Todays voters would get older and become the new UKIP voters.

Doggy Styles
14th March 2014, 14:32
Anyway the current state of affairs is such that Vote UKIP = Get Milliband.Indeed. It's a worrying thought.

d000hg
14th March 2014, 14:33
I'm not a UKIP voter, but ... wanted to see what the fuss was about and if they could generate any local interest. I was also suspicous of how UKIP is being painted by some.


The town is a CON/LAB marginal. I was quite shocked by how many people were there, was standing room only.They went for the same reasons you did.


First thing he said "If you are expecting me to bash foreigners you can leave now".Well duh. That's not going to get him votes.


Labour had planted some smug stooges in the audience to ask some (as they thought) difficult questions, Farrage remained good humoured but brushed them aside very adeptly. Seems Labour are VERY worried and are adopting this tactic everywhere they can.So he has pat answers or typical oily politician manoeuvring skills? How did you know they were planted Labour stooges... just because they supported Labour?


Farrage himself is a very impressive and charismatic orator Like Hitler?

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 14:37
They went for the same reasons you did.

Well duh. That's not going to get him votes.

So he has pat answers or typical oily politician manoeuvring skills? How did you know they were planted Labour stooges... just because they supported Labour?

Like Hitler?

Maybe they were UKIP stooges pretending to Labour stooges.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 14:44
... trading with commonwealth countries rather than EU.

....

This is the bit I don't get about UKIP.
Are they saying they want stronger links with countries like India, which after all has the strongest growth potential of any commonwealth country?
Will that mean more ICTs and easier access for Indian students and businessmen?

I don't think they've thought this through :laugh:laugh:laugh

Peoplesoft bloke
14th March 2014, 14:45
They win BECAUSE people vote for them, you make it sound like they win by magic. Every MP gets in because they get the most votes in their constituency, of course.

Yes - but as others have observed, all of the votes for anyone else are a waste and we have a significant proportion of voters who always vote Tory, Lab, Lib etc., so if you wind up being a Tory or UKIP in a safe LAB seat, you might as well eat your ballot paper.

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 14:45
This is the bit I don't get about UKIP.
Are they saying they want stronger links with countries like India, which after all has the strongest growth potential of any commonwealth country?
Will that mean more ICTs and easier access for Indian students and businessmen?

I don't think they've thought this through :laugh:laugh:laugh

It's an emotional appeal to return to the happy 1950's, where the housewife cleans behind the fridge while the NZ lamb - imported under a preferential trade deal - cooks in the oven.

ZARDOZ
14th March 2014, 14:46
They went for the same reasons you did.

Well duh. That's not going to get him votes.

So he has pat answers or typical oily politician manoeuvring skills? How did you know they were planted Labour stooges... just because they supported Labour?

Like Hitler?

Not one person left or asked a question about immigration.

Oily? No, it looked like he was used to it. He did engage with the questioner. All in good humour.

There were some Labour local cllrs there colluding with them, and an activist told me Labour were running a dirty tricks campaign along such lines. I can believe it, they are winning Labour voters as well as disillusioned Conservatives.

MyUserName
14th March 2014, 14:47
Never mind that. How good are you really at chess?

He is actually pretty good

sasguru
14th March 2014, 14:48
Ah, no.

If age is the yardstick, it's the demographic rather than specific people, and churn happens. Todays voters would get older and become the new UKIP voters.

I disagree. Today's young grew up with Europe as their backyard, they holidayed there, have mates there, some go to university there and some want to work there.
The anti-Europe contingent voting for UKIP are the old-school post-war generation who were taught that all continentals were inferior to Anglo-Saxons blah-blah.
It's all about the propaganda you're exposed to when you're young.
Today's young are not going to suddenly hate Europe when they're older.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 14:54
It's an emotional appeal to return to the happy 1950's, where the housewife cleans behind the fridge while the NZ lamb - imported under a preferential trade deal - cooks in the oven.

Ah so they want trade with the white commonwealth (Oz, NZ, Canada, not SA anymore, that's too blek). Not a great trading strategy I would say - none of those countries are great long-term bets: Oz will be fooked once its commodity boom ends, Canada isn't that large an economy and NZ is negligible).

oracleslave
14th March 2014, 14:56
He is actually pretty good

I just lost game 1. We're on game 2 now.

MyUserName
14th March 2014, 14:57
I just lost game 1. We're on game 2 now.

I currently on game 3 (I think, maybe 4) with him and am yet to win!

Mich the Tester
14th March 2014, 14:58
In a nutshell: the party of old, thick, men.

How UKIP voters compare (http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/03/05/analysis-ukip-voters/)

Are you suggesting they're :oldgit::oldgit::oldgit: and :cretin::cretin::cretin:?

I think we need a new smiley combining the very best elements of those two.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 14:59
I just lost game 1. We're on game 2 now.


I currently on game 3 (I think, maybe 4) with him and am yet to win!

Next time you play why not start a Chess thread on CUk with your moves so us lesser Chess players can learn?

mos
14th March 2014, 14:59
Farrage himself is a very impressive and charismatic orator

Didn't really get much into policies other than EU vote, Rescinding green taxes, trading with commonwealth countries rather than EU.

He recieved a standing ovation.


Left feeling they will be a MAJOR political force if they develop their policies some more. Can't say I would vote for them....yet.

I saw him at LSE event in January and I was unimpressed. He seemed very much in 'preaching to the choir' mode and seemed a bit confused among young and largely critical audience.

But then I detest the guy.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 14:59
Are you suggesting they're :.

I'm not suggesting it - the stats show they are.

ZARDOZ
14th March 2014, 15:01
This is the bit I don't get about UKIP.
Are they saying they want stronger links with countries like India, which after all has the strongest growth potential of any commonwealth country?
Will that mean more ICTs and easier access for Indian students and businessmen?

I don't think they've thought this through :laugh:laugh:laugh

Does being anti EU governance= no to immigration? I don't think they are against a proper points based system. Rather than a right to work here with no skills.
Remember once the Labour Party were anti EU with the majority voting against EU entry in 1972.

Not saying I agree,like many people I'm just sick of the PR and spin driven homogenous sludge of CON/LAB/LIB political parties.


I saw him at LSE event in January and I was unimpressed. He seemed very much in 'preaching to the choir' mode and seemed a bit confused among young and largely critical audience.

But then I detest the guy.

At least he turned up outside his comfort zone. Try getting Dave, Ed or Nick to do that.

Flashman
14th March 2014, 15:02
I disagree. Today's young grew up with Europe as their backyard, they holidayed there, have mates there, some go to university there and some want to work there.
The anti-Europe contingent voting for UKIP are the old-school post-war generation who were taught that all continentals were inferior to Anglo-Saxons blah-blah.
It's all about the propaganda you're exposed to when you're young.
Today's young are not going to suddenly hate Europe when they're older.

Older people can remember living in a democracy.

Sadly I don't think the kids today care anymore. The state does everything for them. Why worry who runs the place?

And even its getting worse now.

I had it drummed into me as a kid that you had to vote as people had died for that right. If you lived in Britain you were free and could say whatever you like.

Not many people say that anymore. :(

Mich the Tester
14th March 2014, 15:03
Not saying I agree,like many people I'm just sick of the PR and spin driven homogenous sludge of CON/LAB/LIB political parties.

You have a point, but I'd still prefer sludge to tosh.

Flashman
14th March 2014, 15:04
Does being anti EU governance= no to immigration? I don't think they are against a proper points based system. Rather than a right to work here with no skills.
Remember once the Labour Party were anti EU with the majority voting against EU entry in 1972.

Not saying I agree,like many people I'm just sick of the PR and spin driven homogenous sludge of CON/LAB/LIB political parties.

Well said MrZ.

Mich the Tester
14th March 2014, 15:04
Older people can remember living in a democracy.

Sadly I don't think the kids today care anymore. The state does everything for them. Why worry who runs the place?



What does the state do for them that it didn't do in the past?

mos
14th March 2014, 15:06
Does being anti EU governance= no to immigration? I don't think they are against a proper points based system. Rather than a right to work here with no skills.
Remember once the Labour Party were anti EU with the majority voting against EU entry in 1972.

Not saying I agree,like many people I'm just sick of the PR and spin driven homogenous sludge of CON/LAB/LIB political parties.

EU immigration is at minimum skilled and more often than not highly skilled and multilingual. Representing EU as 'poor and unskilled' is precisely "spin driven homogenous sludge" which Farage is pulling on youngsters, hence conditioning new generation of Euro-haters.

Not that I care, just saying.

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 15:16
EU immigration is at minimum skilled and more often than not highly skilled and multilingual. Representing EU as 'poor and unskilled' is precisely "spin driven homogenous sludge" which Farage is pulling on youngsters, hence conditioning new generation of Euro-haters.

Not that I care, just saying.

Where are you from?

ZARDOZ
14th March 2014, 15:18
EU immigration is at minimum skilled and more often than not highly skilled and multilingual. Representing EU as 'poor and unskilled' is precisely "spin driven homogenous sludge" which Farage is pulling on youngsters, hence conditioning new generation of Euro-haters.

Not that I care, just saying.

I think a points based system would be most beneficial. "The do the jobs we won't do" argument is morally bankrupt.

In General
Politics needs spicing up, the 3 main parties were/are on a mission to out PC each other. Everything is fine/nothing to see here,when there are real issues simply does not wash anymore. Just watch Question time for the growing disparity between the political classes and the public. A metropolitan elite who know nothing of real society.
This is what happens in a shift to the centre ground. We need parties not afraid to say what people are thinking, be they left or right. They will win respect and votes.

Old Greg
14th March 2014, 15:21
I think a points based system would be most beneficial. "The do the jobs we won't do" argument is morally bankrupt.

In General
Politics needs spicing up, the 3 main parties were/are on a mission to out PC each other. Everything is fine/nothing to see here,when there are real issues simply does not wash anymore. Just watch Question time for the growing disparity between the political classes and the public. A metropolitan elite who know nothing of real society.
This is what happens in a shift to the centre ground. We need parties not afraid to say what people are thinking, be they left or right. They will win respect and votes.

In what way are the main political parties PC?

Mich the Tester
14th March 2014, 15:24
We need parties not afraid to say what people are thinking, be they left or right.

Do you think that 'what people are thinking' is a good guide to decision making?

sasguru
14th March 2014, 15:27
Older people can remember living in a democracy.
:(

Oh how's that?
Were there more/different choices than Labour/Tory after WW2?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Or perhaps you mean the quasi-feudal systems that existed in the 19th/early 20th century?
And I bet maidens rode to vespers on their stand-up-and-beg bikes while the gentle thwack of the cricket ball was heard on the village green?

You UKIPPers talk such utter bilge.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 15:28
EU immigration is at minimum skilled and more often than not highly skilled and multilingual.

If you're a typical example I would say EU immigration is of a mediocre standard with poor logical skills and judgement, and poor command of English.
My Poles are great builders though.

ZARDOZ
14th March 2014, 15:34
In what way are the main political parties PC?

In the way they paint a simplistic caricature of reality, anything else is of course 'prejudice'.

For example
Immigration: All parties pretend it's great, only positive, when in reality it's complex and sometimes has negative externalities on society CON/LAB/LIB all the same on this issue.

Only differentiation is on minor caveats.

When they do differ e.g. welfare bill, they confuse the debate with nonsense. e.g. Confusing jobseekers with economically inactive.

Mich the Tester
14th March 2014, 15:36
In the way they paint a simplistic caricature of reality, anything else is of course 'prejudice'.

For example
Immigration: All parties pretend it's great, only positive, when in reality it's complex and sometimes has negative externalities on society CON/LAB/LIB all the same on this issue.

Perhaps the main parties are very careful about what they say about immigration precisely because they do know how complex the issues are, because for better or worse they have experience in government.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 15:38
In the way they paint a simplistic caricature of reality, anything else is of course 'prejudice'.

For example
Immigration: All parties pretend it's great, only positive, when in reality it's complex and sometimes has negative externalities on society CON/LAB/LIB all the same on this issue.

Only differentiation is on minor caveats.

When they do differ e.g. welfare bill, they confuse the debate with nonsense. e.g. Confusing jobseekers with economically inactive.

Here's the official Conservative policy on immigration:

The Conservative Party | Policy | Where we stand | Immigration (http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand/Immigration.aspx)

I can't see where they say its "...great, only positive..."?

The fact that they're putting (or trying) to put barriers up suggest they don't think so?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Flashman
14th March 2014, 15:44
What does the state do for them that it didn't do in the past?

Its not the reality its the attitude. No personal responsibility.

Problem in society? Must be a state solution. Involved in petty crime? Not your fault. Government must provide Social workers, youth workers,

No qualifications? No training? Is that down to you? No the Government must provide apprenticeships. Nowhere to live? State housing. No job? Government benefits. Can't afford childcare? Government crèche's.

The State will provide. The people running the show just need your vote occasionally and all will be well....

Flashman
14th March 2014, 15:46
Here's the official Conservative policy on immigration:

The Conservative Party | Policy | Where we stand | Immigration (http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand/Immigration.aspx)

I can't see where they say its "...great, only positive..."?

The fact that they're putting (or trying) to put barriers up suggest they don't think so?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I voted for the Conservative Party expectingthem to drastically reduce immigration. This never happened.

Why was that ? 1. They were lying. 2. They don't know how the system works. I don't know which is the more worrying reason.

ZARDOZ
14th March 2014, 15:47
Here's the official Conservative policy on immigration:

The Conservative Party | Policy | Where we stand | Immigration (http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand/Immigration.aspx)

I can't see where they say its "...great, only positive..."?

The fact that they're putting (or trying) to put barriers up suggest they don't think so?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Trying to be all things to all people

"BENEFITS OF IMMIGRATION

Let's start with being open.

The British people are fair-minded - and I want them to feel they can be honest about what they think about this subject.

Here's what I think.

Our country has benefited immeasurably from immigration"


Who said that?
David Cameron. Could have been Ed Milliband OR Nick Clegg

Mich the Tester
14th March 2014, 15:47
Its not the reality its the attitude. No personal responsibility.

Problem in society? Must be a state solution. Involved in petty crime? Not your fault. Government must provide Social workers, youth workers,

No qualifications? No training? Is that down to you? No the Government must provide apprenticeships. Nowhere to live? State housing. No job? Government benefits. Can't afford childcare? Government crèche's.

The State will provide. The people running the show just need your vote occasionally and all will be well....

But the state doesn't provide student grants any more, it has spent many years tightening up requirements for young people that haven't worked much to get benefits, lots of young workers are living with their parents, etcetera.

I really don't see what the state does for young people today that it didn't do 10,20 or 30 years ago. In fact I think it probably does less for them.

Mich the Tester
14th March 2014, 15:48
I voted for the Conservative Party expectingthem to drastically reduce immigration. This never happened.


Then you should have found out what they were saying before voting for them.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 15:48
TBH, it's quite dull every time this political debate comes up to have the same old clichés and hoary untruths coming up:

"we used to live in a democracy" - oh yeah, when particularly?
"all the main parties are the same" - seems to me the Tories have tried to bring change to education, immigration, the economy and other issue with partial success - partial because of having to be in a coalition but mainly because the problems they inherited are so severe.
But the most stupid belief of all is that "UKIP will make everything better" - if you believe that, I've got London bridge to sell to you :laugh:laugh

mos
14th March 2014, 15:49
I think a points based system would be most beneficial. "The do the jobs we won't do" argument is morally bankrupt.

I detest "do the jobs we won't do" argument which not only is incredibly racist but also is unsuitable in the context of EU. Furthermore it actually enforces the spin which UKiP puts on the 'bad' (read European) immigration issue.

No, I do not believe in the point based system, because It was, is and probably always will be abused through falsification of education certificates, bank statements and so on. It will results in the negative selection favouring crooks and it will most likely create environment in which black markets flourish. Improvement of border controls and identification of forged/stolen identity documents is far more pressing at the moment. That is my opinion anyway, but you do not have to trust my word. Listen to what the former head of UK border agency Tony Smith has to say.

Mich the Tester
14th March 2014, 15:49
Trying to be all things to all people



Good. If you're campaigning to run the country then you have to appeal to a lot of different people and demonstrate you're going to try and run the country for the good of every citizen, and not just those who fit your demographic.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 15:50
I voted for the Conservative Party expectingthem to drastically reduce immigration. This never happened.

Why was that ? 1. They were lying. 2. They don't know how the system works. I don't know which is the more worrying reason.

Seems like they drastically reduced non-EU immigration.
You can't really reduce EU immigration without breaking agreements, you can only postpone it/make it tougher to access benefits, which they've done.:rolleyes:

sasguru
14th March 2014, 15:52
No, I do not believe in the point based system, .

You wouldn't have got in with a points based system.
It's clear you are not God's gift intellectually.

mos
14th March 2014, 15:53
My Poles are great builders though.

You don't have any Poles. You may have employed some illegals though for few hours now and then (austerity, benefit cuts and all that)

mos
14th March 2014, 15:56
You wouldn't have got in with a points based system.
It's clear you are not God's gift intellectually.

I got tier 1 visa in 1999 you racist moronic bully! Go and bug your crappy illegal shed builders and leave me alone.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:06
I got tier 1 visa in 1999 you racist moronic bully! Go and bug your crappy illegal shed builders and leave me alone.

:laugh:laugh
Tier 1 visa in 1999 under Labour was basically ..."you've been to university even if its crap. Please come in."
It shows.:laugh:laugh

Compare to Tier 1 now, under the Tories which is very tough.

vetran
14th March 2014, 16:07
I'm not suggesting it - the stats show they are.

which stats show they are thick?

mos
14th March 2014, 16:14
:laugh:laugh
Tier 1 visa in 1999 under Labour was basically ..."you've been to university even if its crap. Please come in."
It shows.:laugh:laugh

Compare to Tier 1 now, under the Tories which is very tough.

You voted those politicians in, I could not care less about who is in power as long as they keep people like you 100 feet away from decent folks.

Doggy Styles
14th March 2014, 16:15
which stats show they are thick?The stats are starting to show that the British are thick as well. We have plummeted down the educational attainment tables.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:16
which stats show they are thick?

The educational stats. I'm sure you can read it for yourself. Or maybe you can't.
Of course it's a generalisation since not everyone with a poor education is stupid, but in general those with a poor education are on the left of the bell-curve.
Particularly as for the older, post-war demographic, high quality education would have been free and based on merit, unlike the young of today who have really got a raw deal.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:17
You voted those politicians in, I could not care less about who is in power as long as they keep people like you 100 feet away from decent folks.

I've never voted Labour.
They're responsible for filling the country with useless immigrants like yourself.
I'm still chuckling over "Tier 1 in 1999".

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:19
The stats are starting to show that the British are thick as well. We have plummeted down the educational attainment tables.

You only need to be on CUK to see the lack of basic logical, reasoning and numeracy skills

mos
14th March 2014, 16:21
The stats are starting to show that the British are thick as well. We have plummeted down the educational attainment tables.

He was talking about UKiP voters, not about general population. But yes, UK is behind most in not all other EU countries in PISA ranking, which is a shame.

KentPhilip
14th March 2014, 16:22
Well that explains KP's trip to the seedy streets of Thailand...

It's good to get into training for a debauched retirement :D

mos
14th March 2014, 16:24
I've never voted Labour.
They're responsible for filling the country with useless immigrants like yourself.
I'm still chuckling over "Tier 1 in 1999".

Perhaps you felt that voting is beneath you, but people like you did vote for them. I have nothing to do with New Labour and I could not care less.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:26
Perhaps you felt that voting is beneath you, but people like you did vote for them. I have nothing to do with New Labour and could not care less.

Your exemplary logical skills lead you to conclude from "I've never voted Labour" to "Perhaps you felt that voting is beneath you"?

What were the conditions of this 1999 Tier 1 visa anyway? That you had a pulse?

I'm a Tory voter.
I'm sure you couldn't care less, you got in and are free to whine, moan and claim benefits to your hearts content now.

mos
14th March 2014, 16:30
I'm a Tory voter.
I'm sure you couldn't care less, you got in and are free to whine, moan and claim benefits to your hearts content now.

I have never claimed £1 in benefits and I am in BUPA since 2002. I cannot be bothered to calculate direct taxes which I contributed over the years but its far in excess of £300K.

But yes, I am free to do everything I want as long as its within the law.

mos
14th March 2014, 16:33
Your exemplary logical skills lead you to conclude from "I've never voted Labour" to "Perhaps you felt that voting is beneath you"?

My hypothesis did not have logical flaw, you conceited moron.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:37
I have never claimed £1 in benefits and I am in BUPA since 2002. I cannot be bothered to calculate direct taxes which I contributed over the years but its far in excess of £300K.

But yes, I am free to do everything I want as long as its within the law.

£300K tax over 15 years? That's 20K a year.
And you're a "Tier 1" immigrant? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Feck me, maybe UKIP have a point.
What have you been doing, cleaning toilets?

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:39
My hypothesis did not have logical flaw, you conceited moron.

The conclusion was not justified from the information given, was it? :rolleyes:
Hence it was illogical.
No wonder you've earned so little over the years.
Keep digging though - it seems to be the "modus operandi" for cretins.

mos
14th March 2014, 16:44
£300K tax over 15 years? That's 20K a year.
And you're a "Tier 1" immigrant? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Feck me, maybe UKIP have a point.
What have you been doing, cleaning toilets?

Yes, I was supervising your sloppy job, you :cretin:.

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:48
Yes, I was supervising your sloppy job, you :cretin:.

Pathetic. You're so fooking thick you trotted out that figure without thinking that it gave a clue about what level you were at.
I'm glad I was right in my judgement.

mos
14th March 2014, 16:52
The conclusion was not justified from the information given, was it? :rolleyes:
Hence it was illogical.
.

Earth to CretinGuru - New Labor was voted to Power in 1997. It is a common knowledge :facepalm:

I am bored with you by the way.

Bunk
14th March 2014, 16:54
:popcorn:

sasguru
14th March 2014, 16:55
I am bored with you by the way.

I thought I was on your ignore list anyway:laugh:laugh
I'm glad you realise you could learn something by tuning in.

mos
14th March 2014, 17:00
I thought I was on your ignore list anyway:laugh:laugh
I'm glad you realise you could learn something by tuning in.

bored

sasguru
14th March 2014, 17:01
Anyway judging from that exchange, there's at least one country whose educational level isn't better than the UK's: Poland.
Maybe they made it better after mos left.

doodab
14th March 2014, 17:03
But yes, UK is behind most in not all other EU countries in PISA ranking, which is a shame.

That is surprising given that the germans have those awful dr oekter things. Waitrose ones are much better.

mos
14th March 2014, 17:06
Anyway judging from that exchange, there's at least one country whose educational level isn't better than the UK's: Poland.
Maybe they made it better after mos left.

Maybe

sasguru
14th March 2014, 17:14
Cretinwatch signing orf!

<<<lillibullero theme >>>

sasguru
14th March 2014, 17:20
good weekend all

vetran
14th March 2014, 18:19
The educational stats. I'm sure you can read it for yourself. Or maybe you can't.
Of course it's a generalisation since not everyone with a poor education is stupid, but in general those with a poor education are on the left of the bell-curve.
Particularly as for the older, post-war demographic, high quality education would have been free and based on merit, unlike the young of today who have really got a raw deal.

you mean having a degree?

now if you read the summary they pointed out degrees were only obtained by a small percentage of the population in earlier years. Few aspired to degrees and few would have been accepted by universities. More modern degrees handed out like cornflakes in the B'liar years tend to compare unfavourably as do GCSEs versus 'O' Levels.

This might help you understand it has pictures:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_337841.pdf

so assuming twice as many people in UKIP are over 40 then they are half as likely to have a degree as someone who could graduate in 2011 because the number of degrees gained doubled between 1992 & 2011.

oracleslave
16th March 2014, 16:55
I currently on game 3 (I think, maybe 4) with him and am yet to win!

Lost game 2 but got closer this time.