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DonkeyRhubarb
28th April 2014, 11:38
Hi,

If your MP is on the FBC (see list below) and you would be willing to engage with them, please contact:

george.paterson @ whitehouseconsulting.co.uk

Whitehouse are representing a number of groups affected by the legislation, and are working to secure a debate or amendments in the committee.

Many thanks
DR


You can look up your MP using your postcode HERE (https://www.writetothem.com)

Finance Bill Committee Members

- Lorely Burt

- Nic Dakin

- James Duddridge

- Charlie Elphicke

- Chris Evans

- Richard Fuller

- Mark Garnier

- Mr David Gauke

- Sheila Gilmore

- Mrs Mary Glindon

- Duncan Hames

- Chris Heaton-Harris

- Cathy Jamieson

- Mr Marcus Jones

- Mike Kane

- Kwasi Kwarteng

- Andrea Leadsom

- Chris Leslie

- Shabana Mahmood

- Iain McKenzie

- Catherine McKinnell

- Ian Mearns

- Mark Menzies

- Nicky Morgan

- Teresa Pearce

- Christopher Pincher

- Amber Rudd

- David Rutley

- Alec Shelbrooke

- Henry Smith

- Ian Swales

- Valerie Vaz

- Heather Wheeler

- Chris Williamson

- Sammy Wilson

DonkeyRhubarb
28th April 2014, 12:19
bumping the thread up

jrock
28th April 2014, 18:54
bumping the thread up

Hi I would like to write to my MP and to raise concerns about the proposed HMRC new powers and retrospective legalisation.

I used website https://www.writetothem.com to find my local MP and councillors but wondering if anyone has any tips in how to construct a query / what to ask the MPs?

Does anyone have a template to use? Is it best to direct this to the local MP or councillors?

DonkeyRhubarb
29th April 2014, 08:06
Hi I would like to write to my MP and to raise concerns about the proposed HMRC new powers and retrospective legalisation.

I used website https://www.writetothem.com to find my local MP and councillors but wondering if anyone has any tips in how to construct a query / what to ask the MPs?

Does anyone have a template to use? Is it best to direct this to the local MP or councillors?

It's best to write to your MP. You could use this as a starting point.


Dear MP

Re. Finance (No. 2) Bill, Part 4, Chapter 3 – Accelerated Payment

I am writing to you because I am likely to be affected by the above legislation being put before Parliament. Several years ago I used a DOTAS arrangement, and these arrangements are being retrospectively targeted by this legislation.

If the legislation is passed by Parliament and HMRC issue me with Accelerated Payment Notices, with 90 days to pay, there is no way I will be able to pay. This will result in penalties and HMRC then commencing enforcement action against me.

The most likely outcome of all this is I will have to go bankrupt which will end my contracting career.

This is notwithstanding the fact that HMRC have never proved anything against me, or the arrangement I used, in a court of law. All HMRC have done to date is open an investigation into my tax returns. I fully disclosed the arrangement to HMRC and have fully cooperated with their investigation, and now it feels like I am about to be penalised for being open and honest.

In a recent Budget Note, HMRC stated that 43,000 taxpayers would be receiving accelerated payment notices. I am sure there will be many others like me who will be severely impacted.

I hope you can understand why I am totally dismayed about this, and I would be grateful if you could raise this matter in Parliament so that MPs appreciate the ramifications of what they are being asked to vote for.

Yours sincerely

CanPayButWouldRatherNot
29th April 2014, 10:38
Hi DR .. have written to my mp before now and informed whitehouse ...

but if I havent sent anything since the accelerated payment legislation went through .. should I send something across again now ?

DonkeyRhubarb
29th April 2014, 12:00
Hi DR .. have written to my mp before now and informed whitehouse ...

but if I havent sent anything since the accelerated payment legislation went through .. should I send something across again now ?

At the moment WH are focusing on the committee members but I'll find out if there is a plan to widen this out to all MPs.

lfcynwa
29th April 2014, 13:02
Great stuff DR fyi I have continued to engage my local MP in Aberdeenshire who was supportive and against the bill..

jrock
29th April 2014, 13:46
It's best to write to your MP. You could use this as a starting point.

Many thanks for the wording template I've sent this to my MP just now. Hopefully will get a response.

DonkeyRhubarb
29th April 2014, 16:41
At the moment WH are focusing on the committee members but I'll find out if there is a plan to widen this out to all MPs.

The plan is to get everyone to write to their MP in a week or two, and WH will be producing a template.

lucozade
29th April 2014, 18:38
Sent email to George as my MP is the Brazilian rent boy loving Mark Menzies.

Haven't heard from George yet.

Mulder
29th April 2014, 19:16
If widening out to general MPs not just the committee MPs, I would be happy to write to mine.

varunksingh
4th May 2014, 19:23
I found my emails were just ignored and got no response. Those who got responses were general ones like "written to treasury on your behalf" and that came back with standard response "... cash from advantages...". I don't think just emailing has worked for me.

What worked was picking the phone up and requesting a face to face meeting. I am meeting mine on Friday 9th. I plan to engage him by taking his views and how/why he finds this legislation fair? I also wish to make him aware that how hardly this will punish my family and how it has ready caused so much problems in my family. Especially when I was part of an EBT and HMRC is yet to win an EBT case using loans.

Bottom line, 1000s of us have got affected and if all get on the phone and meet the MPs it will have an impact. But what I am seeing is many are ignoring or not doing anything about it. Just writing a letter to MP and thinking our part is done is not going to be enough. I fail to understand why such a large majority of those getting affected are not doing anything about it.

SantaClaus
4th May 2014, 20:55
I found my emails were just ignored and got no response. Those who got responses were general ones like "written to treasury on your behalf" and that came back with standard response "... cash from advantages...". I don't think just emailing has worked for me.

What worked was picking the phone up and requesting a face to face meeting. I am meeting mine on Friday 9th. I plan to engage him by taking his views and how/why he finds this legislation fair? I also wish to make him aware that how hardly this will punish my family and how it has ready caused so much problems in my family. Especially when I was part of an EBT and HMRC is yet to win an EBT case using loans.

Bottom line, 1000s of us have got affected and if all get on the phone and meet the MPs it will have an impact. But what I am seeing is many are ignoring or not doing anything about it. Just writing a letter to MP and thinking our part is done is not going to be enough. I fail to understand why such a large majority of those getting affected are not doing anything about it.

I'm mainly concerned with the BN66 thread, but wanted to add that I completely agree with VarunKSingh's sentiments.

Anyone who will be caught by the "pay upfront" legislation needs to strike now whilst the iron is hot. You can bury your heads in the sand and hope somebody else will deal with it, but don't complain when your MP votes through the legislation because they have no idea what it is about.

This is exactly what happened with Section 58 (BN66) in the 2008 Finance Act. Government ministers lied to Parliament and MPs voted through the legislation without understanding the facts. They were told it would only affect the wealthy, it was a "clarification" of existing law, etc. etc..

Don't rely on an email or letter. Arrange a meeting at your MP's surgery. Many of them hold surgeries late evenings. This legislation WILL be voted through before MPs break up for their summer recess unless there is an avalanche of constituents banging down their doors.

varunksingh
5th May 2014, 18:42
I would also add that no one should hesitate to contact MPs. I have found their office is helpful and I did not had to do too much to get an appointment. As soon I requested, someone called me back and all got confirmed. I think most MPs will be approachable. I hope they also later do something about it.

flamel
6th May 2014, 13:08
Varun do you have a potted version of the issues to discuss with MPs? I want to see my MP and don't want to get into a tangle

regron
6th May 2014, 13:50
Been reading all the latest threads on EBT/APN etc... as I too have received enquiry and discovery letters. Would love to lobby my MP, but as a constituent of Newark and thanks to Patrick Mercer, I'm not in a position to do that. Already appealed them all and now hanging in the balance with everyone else, whilst mulling over my options. The one I won't be using though is paying up without a fight !!

varunksingh
7th May 2014, 20:31
Varun do you have a potted version of the issues to discuss with MPs? I want to see my MP and don't want to get into a tangle

My approach with my MP has been not of fighting or have a go at him or government but engaging with him. Start with agreeing that ILLEGAL avoidance should be stopped and agree that if I have done a mistake in past I am happy to try and fix it. Then engage by asking questions around legislation specific points - points which you are most worried about or affect you a lot. For me these are
1) After collecting upfront tax, should HMRC not have a time limit to conclude the case or take it to court? I don't want HMRC to sit with money for years
2) How will taxpayer be protected if HMRC is given powers to be the judge. HMRC gets targets for tax collection and will that not cause conflict of interest?
3) HMRC should provide long term plans to pay off multiple years liabilities.
etc etc
Point is ask question and communicate your situation. By asking questions you are ensuring MP starts to think and understand the legislation instead of just believing what HMRC are advertising. By communicating your situation you are ensuring that MP gets a picture of problems people will face when voting on the bill.

May be not the best approach but gives a start I guess. Better for all to try and do what they can to get this legislation changed and we don't have much time. I really don't understand how people have ignored this. 65000 getting affected and these forums should be full of how things progress with MPs.

DonkeyRhubarb
8th May 2014, 08:28
Most MPs should, by now, be familiar with AP (accelerated payment). If Parliament passes this legislation then come July HMRC will be able to start issuing APNs (accelerated payment notices). Taxpayers will have 90 days to pay or face penalties and enforcement action.

Explain to your MP how this would affect you personally.

There is nothing in the legislation to stop HMRC bankrupting people who can't pay. Is Parliament happy for them to do that when they have not proved anything in court?

You don't need to get technical. This is about how it will impact you and others like you.

SantaClaus
9th May 2014, 06:28
For anyone who is still dithering about whether or not so see their MP before the May elections...

Taxman to raid joint accounts | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2623810/Taxman-raid-joint-accounts-Wife-lose-cash-husband-whos-arrears-new-proposals.html)

convict
9th May 2014, 07:13
Its also kicking off on LBC with Nick Ferrari as well now. Maybe the implications are starting to sink in

regron
9th May 2014, 10:14
Its also kicking off on LBC with Nick Ferrari as well now. Maybe the implications are starting to sink in

Whilst this can only be a good thing, are we sure this will have any affect on the Retrospective or APN part of the bill ? I fear not. Maybe this is a ploy by the Government to deflect the public's attention to the account raiding part of the bill, which could possibly end up being scrapped, to allow the Retro and APN part to go through, as this is where they expect to be more successful !!

jbryce
9th May 2014, 10:52
Whilst this can only be a good thing, are we sure this will have any affect on the Retrospective or APN part of the bill ? I fear not. Maybe this is a ploy by the Government to deflect the public's attention to the account raiding part of the bill, which could possibly end up being scrapped, to allow the Retro and APN part to go through, as this is where they expect to be more successful !!

...it's also worth pointing out that retrospection/APN/Follower notices etc. will be subject to legal challenge. They may try and push it through, but it won't be a slam dunk.

SantaClaus
9th May 2014, 11:19
Whilst this can only be a good thing, are we sure this will have any affect on the Retrospective or APN part of the bill ? I fear not. Maybe this is a ploy by the Government to deflect the public's attention to the account raiding part of the bill, which could possibly end up being scrapped, to allow the Retro and APN part to go through, as this is where they expect to be more successful !!

Nail firmly hit on head.

The govt. control the press. A story like this wouldn't be the headline of every newspaper and media outlet if there wasn't a hidden agenda.

Still, I'll use it as a launchpad to talk about the real issue when I see my MP today :)

varunksingh
9th May 2014, 12:22
Whilst this can only be a good thing, are we sure this will have any affect on the Retrospective or APN part of the bill ? I fear not. Maybe this is a ploy by the Government to deflect the public's attention to the account raiding part of the bill, which could possibly end up being scrapped, to allow the Retro and APN part to go through, as this is where they expect to be more successful !!

Exactly what government it trying. I just met my MP - a conservative and I don't think he was fully aware of the bill.

Meeting him I feel if this passed is current form it will not be just because of Mr Guake but also because of 1000s of those who are getting affect but are not taking their fingers out and meeting with MPs

Jez123
9th May 2014, 16:39
Exactly what government it trying. I just met my MP - a conservative and I don't think he was fully aware of the bill.

Meeting him I feel if this passed is current form it will not be just because of Mr Guake but also because of 1000s of those who are getting affect but are not taking their fingers out and meeting with MPs

Hi Varun

good posts recently and you've prompted me into action. I have made an appointment to meet my local MP (also a Tory) to discuss the accelerated payment legislation (the account raiding part of the bill). It was easy to book a meeting in one of his surgery's and I would urge all contractors on this board to do the same, it might just have an impact!

Jez

varunksingh
10th May 2014, 11:46
Great Jez. I hope others follow. I am sure even Mr Gauke will not be able to look eye to eye and say what he is purposing is legal and correct.

dezze
14th May 2014, 08:21
Has anyone been to see the Fareham MP yet? Trying to organise now.

DotasScandal
14th May 2014, 09:44
Well done to all that have sprung into action and arranged to meet their local MP!
The campaign is starting to gain some momentum, but more people need to join for us to make a difference.
We are preparing a cheat sheet of points to keep in mind when meeting your MP face to face, so stay tuned.

www.dotas-scandal.org

tax is taxing
14th May 2014, 10:42
Meeting my MP this weekend. Printed out summary from a number of posts across various threads in this forum.

Hoping to explain the unfair suffering this legislation will bring, to me and my young family.

Particularly from the point that EBTs have yet to be proven illegal and the fact that should they stand the test of the court again, all the suffering my family would've gone through will be for no good reason.

Hope this plea opens his mind to the atrocipous possibilities this legislatioin has on normal law abiding people.

DotasScandal
16th May 2014, 09:07
Financial Times: “Osborne must not exploit public anger to make bad law”

http://tinyurl.com/lc9dqwh

www.dotas-scandal.org

DotasScandal
19th May 2014, 14:51
For those who have yet to meet their MP, here can be found a little helpsheet with points to mention.
https://www.dotas-scandal.org/helpsheet/

www.dotas-scandal.org

DonkeyRhubarb
23rd May 2014, 11:58
Anyone who is likely to be unable to pay, if they receive accelerated payment notices, should have a read of this FOI response from HM Treasury.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/207693/response/519971/attach/2/document2014%2005%2021%20151905.pdf

TheDandy
23rd May 2014, 16:41
Seems every response always get a lengthy prelude about the commitment to clamp down on avoidance, the incredible success it's already been and the seemingly overwhelming victories in the courts by HMRC, before actually answering the question. So despite the fact no proof of wrongdoing has been established under usual principles the disputed tax is treated as a debt and therefore bankruptcy ensues for many. This just shows it up for what it is.........

Quite why it needed a FOI request to get transparency on their intent..........can't squeeze blood out of a stone though.

varunksingh
24th May 2014, 10:35
I am going to ask how many the enquiries HMRC take to court and how many stay open for 2,3,4 and 5 years without going to court

DonkeyRhubarb
24th May 2014, 11:09
I am going to ask how many the enquiries HMRC take to court and how many stay open for 2,3,4 and 5 years without going to court

You need to be extremely careful how you frame your request.

HMRC are incredibly slippery. They will use any old excuse not to provide information. One of their favourites is "it will cost too much". There is a £600 / 3 man-day limit under the Freedom of Information Act.

Unlike the Treasury, they don't care about deliberately flouting the FOI law. Here is an example where they've gone over the 20-day statutory time limit.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/accelerated_payment_and_bankrupt

I guarantee you will be tearing your hair out in frustration with HM Robbers & Crooks.

bandemelbs
24th May 2014, 13:27
I think anyone that pays up is making a big mistake. Everyone needs to band together & tackle this collectively.

I've also been informed that HMRC don't normally pursue people through to bankruptcy. Is this correct?

jbryce
24th May 2014, 13:44
I think anyone that pays up is making a big mistake. Everyone needs to band together & tackle this collectively.

I've also been informed that HMRC don't normally pursue people through to bankruptcy. Is this correct?

Quite the contrary. HMRC happily pursue people through to Bankruptcy court even in cases where there no apparent benefit to either side.

However, I have spoken to Bankruptcy specialists who question if a Bankruptcy Court would be comfortable bankrupting an individual against an APN or Follower Notice based on a case that has not been proved in a court. Even more so, given that HMRC lose 20% of the cases they do bring (and they don't bring them all!).
A lot of schemes were, at the time, effective. The effectiveness of an individuals scheme can only be ascertained by the relevant tax court, so there is a very real danger that individuals will be pursued to bankruptcy even when the have a defensible position

As for banding together, it depends on which scheme you are associated with, both Sanzar and Edge have something on the go. Look at those threads.

TheDandy
24th May 2014, 13:46
I think anyone that pays up is making a big mistake. Everyone needs to band together & tackle this collectively.

I've also been informed that HMRC don't normally pursue people through to bankruptcy. Is this correct?

A scheme promoter/operator didn't tell you that by any chance!

cojak
24th May 2014, 13:53
As for banding together, it depends on which scheme you are associated with, both Sanzar and Edge have something on the go. Look at those threads.

And the others (TRM does as well I believe).

People will PM you details if you post in the relevent thread.

varunksingh
24th May 2014, 17:13
A scheme promoter/operator didn't tell you that by any chance!

I don't know about others but have not seen any case that proves EBT with loans illegal. All eyes on Rangers case!

dezze
27th May 2014, 09:54
I don't know about others but have not seen any case that proves EBT with loans illegal. All eyes on Rangers case!

Do you know when this is scheduled?

varunksingh
28th May 2014, 07:15
Do you know when this is scheduled?

Hearing finished in Mar 14. Generally 3-6 months wait after hearing - so I am expecting around Aug/Sep

DonkeyRhubarb
30th May 2014, 11:03
New template letter to send to your MP

http://notoretrotax.org.uk/public-documents/A125%20NTRT%20Toolkit%20-%20Finance%20Bill%20Campaign%20May%202014.doc