Boris gets the check book out.

[JohntheBike]

Which then goes back to your earlier claim that you refuse to substantiate about “current arguments”.



Where are these arguments that you are claiming? Are they from sources that will back them up?
We’ve asked you already, but you decided to change the subject.

I'm trying to wade through the criticisms here, so I'm not too sure what I'm being asked to substantiate. There is very real concern in Holyhead about the possible outcomes of Brexit. Here is a BBC article on the issues

Brexit: Holyhead lorry backlog plan in case of no-deal - BBC News

We have seen recently an idea being floated to build a bridge between Northern Ireland and Scotland. However outrageous and impractical this might seem, it reveals to me an interest in seeking different routes for goods travelling from Northern Ireland to the UK. Which is what I believe I'm trying to say. There could be different ways of tackling the issues with ports which are directly linked to trade with the ROI. There is so much smoke and mirrors these days to be able to see the cat from the pigeons.

[JohntheBike]

Where is the link to the BBC story?

here is an article discussing the potential issues -

Brexit: Holyhead lorry backlog plan in case of no-deal - BBC News

so as I've said in my other post, what I believe I've been trying to say is that could there be other ways of linking Belfast with the UK other than going through Dublin? The mere suggestion that a bridge could be built between Northern Ireland and Scotland suggests that some may be looking into the,possibility of using a different route.

[Old Greg]

so where are the statistics which can clarify my perceptions?

e.g.

1. What percentage of the trade between the ROI and the UK goes through all the ports which handle such trade?
2. What percentage of the trade between Northern Ireland and the UK goes through all the ports which handle such trade.

The perception that the BBC Welsh news is portraying is that the majority of such trade passes through Holyhead. Is this true? or is it BBC biased reporting?

I'm trying to wade through the criticisms here, so I'm not too sure what I'm being asked to substantiate. There is very real concern in Holyhead about the possible outcomes of Brexit. Here is a BBC article on the issues

Brexit: Holyhead lorry backlog plan in case of no-deal - BBC News

We have seen recently an idea being floated to build a bridge between Northern Ireland and Scotland. However outrageous and impractical this might seem, it reveals to me an interest in seeking different routes for goods travelling from Northern Ireland to the UK. Which is what I believe I'm trying to say. There could be different ways of tackling the issues with ports which are directly linked to trade with the ROI. There is so much smoke and mirrors these days to be able to see the cat from the pigeons.

I have posted the article you link to in full below. Where does the article make any portrayal of trade routes between 'Northern Ireland and the UK [sic]'?

Land in Anglesey could be turned into a parking site for lorries in the event of a no-deal Brexit.The contingency plan, led by the Welsh Government, has been drawn up in case Holyhead port is unable to handle traffic after the UK leaves the EU.
It comes as MPs are expected to reject Theresa May's Brexit deal.
The two sites on Anglesey are at the Roadking truck stop, near Holyhead, and land adjacent to the Mona airfield in the centre of the island.
The plan has been drawn up amid concerns that additional border checks in the event of a no-deal Brexit on 29 March could lead to traffic problems at Welsh ports connected to the Republic of Ireland.
In order to avoid disruption in that scenario, the UK government has said that it would minimise checks or simply waive through trucks from EU countries, such as Ireland.
However, the EU has said it would impose full controls on people and goods entering the EU from Wales and the UK.

• Reality Check: What would 'no deal' look like?
• Brexit: Could Channel Ports cope with no deal?
• Reality Check: Can Parliament stop a no-deal Brexit?

Image captionLand next to Mona airfield has been earmarked by officials as one of the sites for waiting lorriesOn Monday, first minister Mark Drakeford told the assembly's Brexit committee there was a "risk that that will create a backlog so that lorries that are destined for the republic will not be able to leave Wales."
In order to deal with a potential backlog, Mr Drakeford said "there is space that can be used" at ports in Pembroke Dock and Fishguard - but "Holyhead is not in that position".
He added: "So, there are, at a civil contingency level, discussions going on at Holyhead about what alternatives could be made…to make use of land that is not in the ownership of the port.
An Anglesey council source has told BBC Wales that the plan is to use Holyhead's capacity of roughly 600 lorries in the first instance before using 200 or so spaces at the Roadking truck stop on the outskirts of the town.
If more space was needed, then lorries would be diverted to Anglesey Agricultural Show's park and ride facility next to the Mona airfield.
The source said: "Beyond that, you're looking at more sites in the private sector."
Image captionGeorge Watson said customs in any port would cause "havoc"One truck driver from Ireland, George Watson, feared there was nothing ready on either side of the Irish sea.
"Anywhere there's customs in any of the ports is going to cause havoc," he said.
"I can't see it working. We will be held-up for hours and hours and hours."
Another truck driver from Ireland said: "if there's going to be huge delays it wouldn't be practical for hauliers to leave trucks sitting here.
"The smarter option would be to ship trailers out to Cherbourge, Dunkirk for example if the ferry companies put a ferry on there."
'Severe delay' warning

As part of its planning for a no-deal Brexit, the Irish Government has said that it aims to "ensure that any potential disruption…is kept to a minimum" but that lorries travelling to Welsh ports and through the UK before reaching mainland Europe "may be subject to severe delays".
About 70% of Irish cargo destined for UK and EU markets passes through Welsh ports - the majority of it through Holyhead, which is the second busiest port in the UK.
In the meantime, prime minister Mrs May is seeking to build support for her Brexit deal ahead of the vote in the House of Commons next Tuesday.
However, many of her own Conservative MPs are expected to join Labour, the SNP, the DUP and Plaid Cymru in opposing the plan.
First Minister Mr Drakeford will repeat at a Brexit business conference in Deeside on Friday his belief that a no-deal Brexit is "wholly unacceptable and must be ruled out as an option".

[WTFH]

I'm trying to wade through the criticisms here, so I'm not too sure what I'm being asked to substantiate. There is very real concern in Holyhead about the possible outcomes of Brexit. Here is a BBC article on the issues

Brexit: Holyhead lorry backlog plan in case of no-deal - BBC News

We have seen recently an idea being floated to build a bridge between Northern Ireland and Scotland. However outrageous and impractical this might seem, it reveals to me an interest in seeking different routes for goods travelling from Northern Ireland to the UK. Which is what I believe I'm trying to say. There could be different ways of tackling the issues with ports which are directly linked to trade with the ROI. There is so much smoke and mirrors these days to be able to see the cat from the pigeons.

There's nothing in that story about NI-GB, it's all about GB-ROI.

If anyone is guilty of smoke and mirrors, it's the person who calls the source he's quoting left wing unreliable, then uses that source as claiming it's saying something that it most certainly isn't.

NI will be able to trade with GB without much of an issue.
As yet no solution has been proposed for how NI will deal with its biggest export market, ROI.

An interesting one will be freight that travels through ROI from GB to NI. If that is done TIR, then provided the UK ratification is still in effect, it's probably achievable, but would potentially require customs checks before leaving GB and then after entering NI, which opens up a can of worms. Of course, that's for a minority of freight.

[JohntheBike]

I have posted the article you link to in full below. Where does the article make any portrayal of trade routes between 'Northern Ireland and the UK [sic]'?

I've lost the thread of what we were discussing to a certain extent. However, it is my understanding that part of the reason why there is so much emphasis on maintaining an open border between the ROI and NI, is that a great deal, if not the majority, of commercial traffic between NI and the UK goes from Belfast to Dublin and across to Holyhead. Furthermore, it is also my understanding that a great deal, if not the majority, of the commercial traffic passing through Holyhead originating from the ROI is destined for onward travel to the EU. Please correct me if I'm wrong with some statistics.

There is an established route between Rosslare and Roscoff, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned much. There is also an established route between Belfast and Stranraer (and I had researched this route several years ago for other reasons), or close by, which again doesn't seem to be mentioned very much. Could it be that the UK is secretly looking at using the Belfast to Stranraer route more in the future and the ROI looking to use the Roscoff route more in the future?

[Old Greg]

I've lost the thread of what we were discussing to a certain extent. However, it is my understanding that part of the reason why there is so much emphasis on maintaining an open border between the ROI and NI, is that a great deal, if not the majority, of commercial traffic between NI and the UK goes from Belfast to Dublin and across to Holyhead. Furthermore, it is also my understanding that a great deal, if not the majority, of the commercial traffic passing through Holyhead originating from the ROI is destined for onward travel to the EU. Please correct me if I'm wrong with some statistics.

There is an established route between Rosslare and Roscoff, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned much. There is also an established route between Belfast and Stranraer (and I had researched this route several years ago for other reasons), or close by, which again doesn't seem to be mentioned very much. Could it be that the UK is secretly looking at using the Belfast to Stranraer route more in the future and the ROI looking to use the Roscoff route more in the future?

I think you're way off the mark. NI / GB trade via RoI and RoI / EU trade via GB, and RoI / RoI trade via NI are issues, but the main 'emphasis on maintaining an open border between the ROI and NI' is RoI / NI trade. Some of this complexity is customs related but there are also significant non-tariff barriers The livestock and milk production cross border flows in particular are significant and complex.

[JohntheBike]

I think you're way off the mark. NI / GB trade via RoI and RoI / EU trade via GB, and RoI / RoI trade via NI are issues, but the main 'emphasis on maintaining an open border between the ROI and NI' is RoI / NI trade. Some of this complexity is customs related but there are also significant non-tariff barriers The livestock and milk production cross border flows in particular are significant and complex.

OK, so how was ROI/NI trade handled prior to both the ROI and the UK being EU members? It must have worked satisfactorily, or was there considerably less of it than now?

[Paddy]

OK, so how was ROI/NI trade handled prior to both the ROI and the UK being EU members? It must have worked satisfactorily, or was there considerably less of it than now?

[JohntheBike]

yes, but the "troubles" didn't start until about 1969, just before we joined the EU. So what was happening in the early 1960's? I wasn't interested in politics then, only motor bikes and girls!

[Old Greg]

OK, so how was ROI/NI trade handled prior to both the ROI and the UK being EU members? It must have worked satisfactorily, or was there considerably less of it than now?

There were customs posts. However you are missing a lot of the point. Brexit will lead to a situation where NI is outside the EU, single market and customs union, whereas RoI is inside. And this will be a change from the status quo which is an integrated economy, where goods, livestock etc. flow freely.