Does this affect or pose a risk to my "out of IR35" contract status Does this affect or pose a risk to my "out of IR35" contract status
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  1. #1

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    Default Does this affect or pose a risk to my "out of IR35" contract status

    Hi all.

    A newbie here, so not sure if posting the right area... I have a couple of questions. In my current role (started 2 months ago) I've been asked by the reporting line managers to
    1. Complete and track against a set of objectives that are all (except 1) exactly the same as the FTE employees
    2. Get my programme managers to agree and sign to a contract of services of what I will/wont do for their programmes
    3. Complete a list in house learnings (mix of mandatory and optional ones that manager insists I do because everyone else in the team does)

    I think they do pose a risk, but need to collect some evidence/proof before I push back to the manager.

    Thanks

  2. #2

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    Firstly. Did you have your contract checked before you started. Are you sure you don't already have a problem with a bum contract?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggiefan View Post
    Hi all.

    A newbie here, so not sure if posting the right area... I have a couple of questions. In my current role (started 2 months ago) I've been asked by the reporting line managers to
    Line manager?? Sounds like you are your own risk.
    1. Complete and track against a set of objectives that are all (except 1) exactly the same as the FTE employees
    Not really a problem. We are paid to deliver so not really an issue them checking we've delivered what we say or as expected. That delivery should really be detailed to some level in your statement of work though.
    2. Get my programme managers to agree and sign to a contract of services of what I will/wont do for their programmes
    You should have already done that as part of your initial engagement. What did you sign up to do originally? Was it just a job role and now you are being allocated tasks by tour client? This is not good.
    3. Complete a list in house learnings (mix of mandatory and optional ones that manager insists I do because everyone else in the team does)
    Don't like this one at all. Try and get out of this. You come on site as a specialist supplier, you deliver what was agreed and you leave. What they are asking you to do looks like part and parcel and some form of SDC. Drop this one for sure.
    I think they do pose a risk, but need to collect some evidence/proof before I push back to the manager.

    Thanks
    I've a feeling these aren't the only problems. Working practices trump contract as well so might have to think about the way they want to work and do you look and feel like an independant supplier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggiefan View Post
    Hi all.

    A newbie here, so not sure if posting the right area... I have a couple of questions. In my current role (started 2 months ago) I've been asked by the reporting line managers to
    1. Complete and track against a set of objectives that are all (except 1) exactly the same as the FTE employees
    2. Get my programme managers to agree and sign to a contract of services of what I will/wont do for their programmes
    3. Complete a list in house learnings (mix of mandatory and optional ones that manager insists I do because everyone else in the team does)

    I think they do pose a risk, but need to collect some evidence/proof before I push back to the manager.

    Thanks
    First one looks OK - it's making sure that you provide an update on the work completed to date.

    Second one looks OK to me - you are documenting the details of what services your company will provide. That's good.

    The optional "learnings" in the third one looks dubious to me - if they are optional then you don't need to do them; if they are mandatory for everyone then they can't be seen as a thing that marks you out one way or the other towards being an emplpoyee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyF View Post
    The optional "learnings" in the third one looks dubious to me - if they are optional then you don't need to do them; if they are mandatory for everyone then they can't be seen as a thing that marks you out one way or the other towards being an emplpoyee.
    I'm with this, the mandatory ones might be the equivalent of a site induction, checking that you're onboard with their bribery policies and privacy things and safety and the like to keep their insurers happy.

  6. #6

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    Lots of businesses have mandatory training that contractors have to do. There is a subtle difference between a company hiring a contractor and hiring in another company and treating them as service providers. In practical terms, in terms of employee relationship, they are both the same i.e. there is no employee relationship.

    Contractors are required to do the training and service providers aren't. Service providers do, however, have to declare that they are trained to the same level. The mandatory courses are generally either noddy HR courses or certain training mandated by compliance (money laundering etc.)

    IR35 will never come into it.

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    Whatever you do, do NOT call it a contract of service
    Last edited by Contractor UK; 13th May 2018 at 17:25.
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    Troll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doggiefan View Post
    1. Complete and track against a set of objectives that are all (except 1) exactly the same as the FTE employees
    Your work needs to be tracked somehow - a client tracking your work isn't an issue - its how you do the work that's important. If you are truly autonomous - i.e. your client says "I need you to write this document - off you go", then you're autonomous. If they say "I want you to write this document, but use this template and heading paper" then it's risky. If they say "I want you to write this document using this template, but I'll be reviewing it and approving it before it can be presented to upper management", its high risk. as they are directing / supervising your work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doggiefan View Post
    2. Get my programme managers to agree and sign to a contract of services of what I will/wont do for their programmes
    Your programme manager? Not had a manager since I started contracting - there are people who *think* they're my manager, but usually I discuss it and confirm it's going to be a B2B relationship at the interview (or scoping meeting) stage. I have lost work doing this at the interview stage before, though.

    However, agreeing a limited project / scope is most definitely an IR35 positive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doggiefan View Post
    3. Complete a list in house learnings (mix of mandatory and optional ones that manager insists I do because everyone else in the team does)
    Extremely high risk. "Because everyone else does" is a significant sign that your client is controlling you. You should decline the vast majority of requests a client makes of you if they're not relevant.

    Saying that, I've contracted in places before where I've not been extended because I refused to complete internal courses or documents that pertain only to employees. I generally avoid anything except Health and Safety courses / supplier compliance documents / meetings.

    Your relationship with your clients is comparable to hiring a builder to create an extension on your house. You can ask him to include particular features - guttering, wooden floors, specific types of window etc - but you wouldn't dream of telling him how to lay bricks or install a lintel.

    Overall it sounds like you're 100% caught, to me.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by radish2008 View Post
    IR35 will never come into it.
    Unless HMRC investigate, of course. Then IR35 will come all over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggiefan View Post
    3. Complete a list in house learnings (mix of mandatory and optional ones that manager insists I do because everyone else in the team does)
    You only do the ones that are mandatory for Health and Safety, Compliance etc reasons. Ignore the optional ones as you are there to provide a service and not an employee. If you are ever asked why you haven't done the optional ones simply say there isn't sufficient time and point out they are optional anyway.

    Personally I've never been told by a client to do optional courses and I would simply refuse.

    BTW the mandatory ones are to ensure you can't sue them for Health and Safety issues, as much as they can't sue you/walk you off-site for money laundering etc.
    Last edited by SueEllen; 29th March 2018 at 19:14.
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