Outside IR35 specific consultancy contracts

[Skag]

I wonder, there are some contractors that offer consultancy around strategy, agile coaching, training, systems architecture etc that are by nature short lived, say 3-6 months. These are by nature outside IR35, due to the nature of business (can't be any control, substitution, liely not an everyday job 9-5 etc).

Shouldn't these still remain outside IR35?

[northernladuk]

You've got the wrong idea of what is outside. What your describing is done on deliversbles/sow which is what is going to make it outside. If you go in bum on seat it could still be inside. They type of work doesn't dictate the status.
I assume you are talking about becoming a direct supplier to the client as a micro consultancy. It's been an idea for years but in the most part just doesn't work because of PSLs, the clients desire to have a body not a consultancy and many other factors.

It's changing in the agency world with the agency/consultancy offerings so they are way ahead of you.

[eek]

I wonder, there are some contractors that offer consultancy around strategy, agile coaching, training, systems architecture etc that are by nature short lived, say 3-6 months. These are by nature outside IR35, due to the nature of business (can't be any control, substitution, liely not an everyday job 9-5 etc).

Shouldn't these still remain outside IR35?

Not if the end client has a blanket ban on PSCs or only offers inside IR35 contracts due to the perceived risk involved.

Our entire contracting model has been based around a set of laws that are very much against skilled independent specialists (for instance substitution when you are the leading expert isn't exactly easy) nothing in April changes that insanity.

[Skag]

You've got the wrong idea of what is outside. What your describing is done on deliversbles/sow which is what is going to make it outside. If you go in bum on seat it could still be inside. They type of work doesn't dictate the status.
I assume you are talking about becoming a direct supplier to the client as a micro consultancy. It's been an idea for years but in the most part just doesn't work because of PSLs, the clients desire to have a body not a consultancy and many other factors.

Not as a micro consultancy. I've worked in short-term consultancy contracts via an agency, using my Ltd, in the typical fashion: ClientCo pays agency, agency pays my Ltd. All these outside IR35. Will these stop? They're still valid outside IR35 as far as I am concerned.

It's changing in the agency world with the agency/consultancy offerings so they are way ahead of you.

What's changing?

[BlasterBates]

If the consultancy is a package i.e. a set of prepared lessons, defined consultancy sessions, then yes it would be outside, but if the client is telling you what they want and you are simply using your expertise in supplying what they want, then no. That would be my interpretation.

i.e. time and materials is generally inside.

In any case it is up to the client to determine whether it is inside or out.

[northernladuk]

Not as a micro consultancy. I've worked in short-term consultancy contracts via an agency, using my Ltd, in the typical fashion: ClientCo pays agency, agency pays my Ltd. All these outside IR35. Will these stop? They're still valid outside IR35 as far as I am concerned.



What's changing?

You really need to get your head out of the sand. The new legislation hits in 4 weeks time. To answer your question above would need me to explain the full scope of what's happening on April 2020 and then make some assumptions and give you some opinions.

A better path for you to take is to really pull your finger out and research. You need to understand what is happening and how the landscape is going to change. By doing that you might have a better clue as to whether they will stop or not. After that you need to go read up and see the impact it's had so far which will give you a clue on how the legislation will affect the market.

This is your livelihood. How can you survive if you don't know what is happening? It's going to be very bad for a lot of people.

Do some research and come back with any specific questions that don't cover the entire mess we are in in one question.

[Skag]

You really need to get your head out of the sand. The new legislation hits in 4 weeks time. To answer your question above would need me to explain the full scope of what's happening on April 2020 and then make some assumptions and give you some opinions.

A better path for you to take is to really pull your finger out and research. You need to understand what is happening and how the landscape is going to change. By doing that you might have a better clue as to whether they will stop or not. After that you need to go read up and see the impact it's had so far which will give you a clue on how the legislation will affect the market.

This is your livelihood. How can you survive if you don't know what is happening? It's going to be very bad for a lot of people.

Do some research and come back with any specific questions that don't cover the entire mess we are in in one question.

So you mean "after the IR35 changes"... I thought agencies/consultancies are changing something in their business model that I'm not aware of.

[Skag]

If the consultancy is a package i.e. a set of prepared lessons, defined consultancy sessions, then yes it would be outside, but if the client is telling you what they want and you are simply using your expertise in supplying what they want, then no. That would be my interpretation.

i.e. time and materials is generally inside.

In any case it is up to the client to determine whether it is inside or out.

Yeah, this is what I am referring to, usually these type of gigs are something like "to come up with a strategy for X business unit", or to "review the existing architecture and propose changes". Again, grey area in between.

[northernladuk]

So you mean "after the IR35 changes"... I thought agencies/consultancies are changing something in their business model that I'm not aware of.

Some will have to and our engagements could be different in some circumstances which is why you need to understand them.

The engagement method I've just started is completely different to any I've been on in 10 year's. Consultancy based, clear deliverables, milestone and so on. I'm sure many won't but the whole landscape is changing.

[northernladuk]

The very quick and dirty answer is the work the clients need doing hasn't changed. If they need consultants, bums on seats or whatever will still be there to a greater or lesser extent.

It's how the engage their contractors that is changing.

What's your situation? You in a gig with a client giving you a determination?