Outside / Inside / Umbrella / Perm or Bye!

[Hawkeye]

Thoughts on this required on risks etc. as have a month to make a decision.

So have been working for Client co. since March. Initially they did a review of the contract with EY and stated I am Outside. Qdos did a review of contract and working practices and also said as good as it can get as Outside etc. etc.

Things are going well, project etc. interesting work and full autonomy.

The Client co. now have stated that as of September they will not engage Ltd. Co's anymore. I was told today that they want to extend me as the project is underway and I have managed to get it back on track where they were struggling to before and that what I was brought in to resolve is looking good and they would like me to drag it over the line.

I have been told I need to go Umbrella, Perm or leave.

My question is...

If I go Umbrella I will probably wind my company down as this seems to be a good option with the way the market is looking and try and claim entrepreneurs relief. I am concerned would this trigger an investigation as despite the Client co review and my own stating it looks Outside it does not mean anything if the companies out there are less inclined to engage that way. Any thoughts or advice on what to do? It seems like to use a Ltd co is a battle these days and might be worth just being grateful for the work and moving on. It is just whether I can get relief and make the most of the new world.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

No-one has a clue about what may or may not trigger an investigation - anyone who says they do is just engaging in person in the pub "wisdom".

I personally would only consider Outside IR35 using my own Ltd, or a PAYE (either fixed term or permie) job. Umbrella "contracting" is the worst of all options.

[northernladuk]

You need to have a good read around the forums, particularly the IR35 reform section. You're post covers a number of issues which need a host of complex answers.

A massive number of people hit exactly the same situation in Feb/March ahead of the failed implementation in April so we've gone over this in great detail many times.

You need to cover the IR35 aspect, the future, the issues with not opening a LTD 2 years after shutting down, retrospective investigation, what's happening next April.

Far to much to go through with you in one post so you really need to go look at the other part of the forum and read up. Then apply this to your personal situation.

Also use the google search method by typing the following in to google changing the keywords. <search term(s)> site:contractoruk.com/forums

[PerfectStorm]

If I'd wound my company down when many on here were losing their heads I'd have no Ltd to run the 2 contracts I've found since. Keep a steady hand.

Oh and if they make you inside, a blanket determination (all people) is much safer than an individual determination (this guy's inside, this guy isn't). So if you negotiate a compensatory rate (after all, it's their choice to do business the expensive way and they must pay for it) and write decent terms into the new contract then you may find it's largely inside in name only.

[Hawkeye]

Have been watching the posts. Think that is why I have no idea what route to take. It really feels like a black hole. All these options and which way to turn. Even contemplating taking a year off then coming back to it to see how the land lies as right now who can see the wood from the trees?!?

Yeah I get the feeling on the investigation triggers. Really who knows. We are taking educated guesses. I have always tried to keep my ducks in a row and do what I can to prep for this inevitability and prepare for a fight.

[Hawkeye]

If I'd wound my company down when many on here were losing their heads I'd have no Ltd to run the 2 contracts I've found since. Keep a steady hand.

Oh and if they make you inside, a blanket determination (all people) is much safer than an individual determination (this guy's inside, this guy isn't). So if you negotiate a compensatory rate (after all, it's their choice to do business the expensive way and they must pay for it) and write decent terms into the new contract then you may find it's largely inside in name only.

That's true. Very good advice. Although the guy that signs off my timesheets after reviewing deliverables said that as the market is rubbish they won't give more money to compensate their blanket approach. No chance.

[PerfectStorm]

That's true. Very good advice. Although the guy that signs off my timesheets after reviewing deliverables said that as the market is rubbish they won't give more money to compensate their blanket approach. No chance.

Walk, then. Always use your leverage. The client I was at last year went from "we're not paying" to "OK how much do you want" when it became apparent that over 50% would leave even with nothing to go to rather than having purely optional extra expense subjected to them.

[northernladuk]

I think the very condensed version would be it's less risky to go brolly now than it was in April. This is a commercial decision and not one designed to meet the April deadline.

If they've not explicitly mentioned it's because IR35 then there isn't a link to before and after status. You've not been deemed inside by the client. They've just changed their engagement menthod.

How that would stand up in court I've no idea but at least you aren't standing there like some would with a clear outside to inside situation.

Hope that helps a bit.

Now I'm very risk averse around all this IR35 but must admit now is not the time to be quitting gigs. Your options were to stay in a very risky situation or leave and find another gig, even if it's inside. There would have been loads due to people having to leave. That is not an option now. Putting yourself out of work for what could be a very long time now starts to outweigh the risk of getting clobbered.

[Hawkeye]

I think the very condensed version would be it's less risky to go brolly now than it was in April. This is a commercial decision and not one designed to meet the April deadline.

If they've not explicitly mentioned it's because IR35 then there isn't a link to before and after status. You've not been deemed inside by the client. They've just changed their engagement method.

How that would stand up in court I've no idea but at least you aren't standing there like some would with a clear outside to inside situation.

Hope that helps a bit.

Now I'm very risk averse around all this IR35 but must admit now is not the time to be quitting gigs. Your options were to stay in a very risky situation or leave and find another gig, even if it's inside. There would have been loads due to people having to leave. That is not an option now. Putting yourself out of work for what could be a very long time now starts to outweigh the risk of getting clobbered.

This is true. I have their emails stating they have reviewed the role as Outside and they have reviewed others as Inside so it was a determination on a per contract basis. Also, I have my own assessments to take to court so lots of evidence. That is also true. They are not determining inside they say they are changing how they engage going forward due to what the government is stipulating as they as so many are scared someone will come knocking on their door.

[Hawkeye]

Walk, then. Always use your leverage. The client I was at last year went from "we're not paying" to "OK how much do you want" when it became apparent that over 50% would leave even with nothing to go to rather than having purely optional extra expense subjected to them.

I will ask the question when they put an offer out there. It would be stupid of me not to especially as I have the knowledge and they would have to find someone to do the work then get them up to speed right as the project is about to wrap up.