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Long running contract

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    Long running contract

    It is looking likely that my contract may be stretching into a third year. Just wondering what precautions would you recommend? (IR35 wise) So far I have:
    - QDOS approved contract and working practices (no notice in the contract, can substitute myself etc all the right tickboxes are ticked)
    - Client accepts that I can send in a substitute or get somebody else to do the work if I wish.
    - I have had 2 reviews with QDOS to date.
    - There are no fixed hours, this is not a 9-5. Also no requirement to work from somewhere (fully remote). There is nobody overseeing what I am doing but as with the nature of software development there are code reviews..

    At what point does a contract starts looking suspecious to the taxman? Is it really that odd to have the same client for a long time?

    #2
    Best approach is to be super pragmatic and look at the gig as if it wasn't you doing. It's difficult to be totally unbiased though. We've seen people come on here and are absolutely convinced their gigs are outside when we've pointed out a raft of things that means it isn't. Some questions you need to ask yourself..

    Why have you been there three years?
    Could the job be done by a permie and indeed are there other permies doing it?
    Is it fixed deliverables or 'BAU'?
    What is the future for this gig? No end date?
    Are you genuinely not part and parcel? As clean as the day you walked in? (I doubt it)
    What did the client do to gear up to April 2020?
    What are the rumblings for April 2021? Remember this is totally out of your hands but will indicate what level of crap you are in

    Plenty more but you need a real dose of reality to make a truely informed decision.

    Obviously things like no fixed hours and remote mean squat as the entire population is currently working like that so again, need to be pretty honest about this.

    Spending 2+ years makes it very difficult to stay as independant as when you are started and part and parcel starts being a real problem. Although time in itself isn't an indication of IR35 status most cases with anything like an HMRC win had time as a factor, albeit runing other pillars and not directly.

    You can tick all the boxes you want. If it's a 'job' you are doing that paperwork isn't going to be much defence come April 21
    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

    Comment


      #3
      How is work assigned, and how do you deal with this when you're asked to do something new / extra ?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
        Best approach is to be super pragmatic and look at the gig as if it wasn't you doing. It's difficult to be totally unbiased though. We've seen people come on here and are absolutely convinced their gigs are outside when we've pointed out a raft of things that means it isn't. Some questions you need to ask yourself..

        Why have you been there three years? Why not? If the client is happy with my service and pays top rate. Seem strange to go looking for a different contract for no reason..
        Could the job be done by a permie and indeed are there other permies doing it? No. In fact they tried and failed miserably getting permies to do it.
        Is it fixed deliverables or 'BAU'? The contract itself doesn't have a fixed deliverable, it's more of a 'service' that I provide. Every x weeks I get a set of deliverables and I report at the end of the period.
        What is the future for this gig? No end date? There is an end date to the contract. But there is no indication that it wouldn't get extended. Eventually the work is likely to die down and will no longer fill my week. In fact some weeks I don't get enough tasks to fill a full working week as it is..
        Are you genuinely not part and parcel? As clean as the day you walked in? (I doubt it) Not sure what you mean by part and parcel? I have little communication with the permies (if at all). I could be binned tomorrow if they no longer needed my service.
        What did the client do to gear up to April 2020? SME - so I still decide the status regardless.
        What are the rumblings for April 2021? Remember this is totally out of your hands but will indicate what level of crap you are in. See above

        Plenty more but you need a real dose of reality to make a truely informed decision.

        Obviously things like no fixed hours and remote mean squat as the entire population is currently working like that so again, need to be pretty honest about this.

        Spending 2+ years makes it very difficult to stay as independant as when you are started and part and parcel starts being a real problem. Although time in itself isn't an indication of IR35 status most cases with anything like an HMRC win had time as a factor, albeit runing other pillars and not directly.

        You can tick all the boxes you want. If it's a 'job' you are doing that paperwork isn't going to be much defence come April 21
        Replies in bold

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by CheeseSlice View Post
          How is work assigned, and how do you deal with this when you're asked to do something new / extra ?
          I get assigned deliverables. Effectively I can say - I am available for x of hours next month and I get given x of hours of work. However it could be less than x of hours. Or it could be more (at which point I usually work more than usual to deliver as that means more money for me). I don't have to accept any work that I am given and there is no expectation that every week is filled with work. In fact it is likely that the level of work may drop off.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by cannon999 View Post
            The contract itself doesn't have a fixed deliverable, it's more of a 'service' that I provide.
            How is the service defined in your contract? What is the specific wording that describes what the deliverable is?

            Originally posted by cannon999 View Post
            In fact some weeks I don't get enough tasks to fill a full working week as it is..
            And for those weeks, how many hours do you bill? Does it change week-on-week?

            From the answers you've given, you could very well be deemed outside IR35 if ever challenged by HMRC, but that does not mean it will be easy to do so (if challenged) and we often find heavy does optimism bias involved when people self-assess.

            The issue is that, the longer you're at a client, the thinking is that you're more likely to be challenged by HMRC. And, as others have said, what is the clients position post April 2021 (assuming not a small client).
            Last edited by Paralytic; 14 July 2020, 16:19.

            Comment


              #7
              Why not? If the client is happy with my service and pays top rate. Seem strange to go looking for a different contract for no reason..
              Little thing called IR35 and being part and parcel of the org... Some people ignore it and carry on regardless, others will see the impending IR35 problem, decide their time is up and goes find other work.

              No. In fact they tried and failed miserably getting permies to do it.
              Could it still be done by a permie as an ongoing role though. The ability of the perms won't be a question in an investigation.

              The contract itself doesn't have a fixed deliverable, it's more of a 'service' that I provide. Every x weeks I get a set of deliverables and I report at the end of the period.
              So a bit like agile. Difficult to argue that's different from how anyone in an agile programme works and what a permie does without much more detail. This type of work is an ever expanding grey area for IR35. We argue it's small chunck of specialised work, HMRC argue it's just ongoing tasks given by an employer to an employee.

              There is an end date to the contract. But there is no indication that it wouldn't get extended. Eventually the work is likely to die down and will no longer fill my week. In fact some weeks I don't get enough tasks to fill a full working week as it is..
              Contract is irrelevant in a case like this TBH. Getting enough tasks sounds very much like D&C and and I'll bet MoO is a problem as well, particularly if you end up billing for more than the work done. Might be difficult in an investigation you were brought in to deliver a product and then leave when the role just goes on and on until the it doesn't. Don't know enough to say if you've an issue here or not.

              (I doubt it) Not sure what you mean by part and parcel? I have little communication with the permies (if at all). I could be binned tomorrow if they no longer needed my service.
              But they see you as a common component of that service and a defacto go to. You are embeded with the piece of work as a permie would be? Are you part of the fabric of the programme or a specialised entity and do the client understand that an treat you as one. Part and parcel is about becoming one with the client kind of. Both sides getting too comfortable.

              SME - so I still decide the status regardless.
              If that's the case then I think you are fine. Just keep doing your diligence and carry on.
              'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

              Comment


                #8
                After two years, it's the expenses that have to be canned. That's an accounting issue rather than an IR35 issue.

                Part and parcel is where you're regarded as "the go-to employee" for something. If everyone sees you as that overpaid SME scumbag contractor who gets paid purely based on the number of days they have to work to deliver the current piece of work, then you're seen as a supplier in general.

                If there's nobody at client co who can do your work, it's little different to them outsourcing photocopier maintenance imho.
                The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by LondonManc View Post
                  After two years, it's the expenses that have to be canned. That's an accounting issue rather than an IR35 issue.

                  Part and parcel is where you're regarded as "the go-to employee" for something. If everyone sees you as that overpaid SME scumbag contractor who gets paid purely based on the number of days they have to work to deliver the current piece of work, then you're seen as a supplier in general.

                  If there's nobody at client co who can do your work, it's little different to them outsourcing photocopier maintenance imho.
                  I work from home, so no expenses really. I highlighted the bit on bold - that's pretty much it. I get pieces of work assigned to me and I get paid for them. No guarantee really that I would get them and there is no obligation for me to accept them.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Paralytic View Post
                    How is the service defined in your contract? What is the specific wording that describes what the deliverable is?



                    And for those weeks, how many hours do you bill? Does it change week-on-week?

                    From the answers you've given, you could very well be deemed outside IR35 if ever challenged by HMRC, but that does not mean it will be easy to do so (if challenged) and we often find heavy does optimism bias involved when people self-assess.

                    The issue is that, the longer you're at a client, the thinking is that you're more likely to be challenged by HMRC. And, as others have said, what is the clients position post April 2021 (assuming not a small client).
                    Every week is different. Some weeks are 20 hours, some are 65 hours. There is no pattern it is literally based on how much work there is.

                    Comment

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