Miners, shipbuilders, IT contractors?

[ChimpMaster]

WHS +1

The last role but 1, 2 UK workers (me and a scrum master) on the project 35 India staff intra'd in. The operating cost of the 30 was 6000 coding. That's 200 a week in Leeds or less than 5 quid an hour.

I've worked around the world and what gets my goat is how the working visa is granted. These are all outside the EU , if you want a reciprocal visa you're dreaming. I'm convinced that there is no easier place to get a visa than the UK.

Its not racism to be frustrated by globalisation and the exploitation / or lack of protection of immigrant or conversely, domestic workers.

This was a public sector project too.

Couldn't you have written to your local MP (or whomever in Government) and given them this info as an example of visa manipulation?

We're all getting shafted by offshoring and more recently onshoring of Bob and his gang. Is there nothing we can do about it, apart from run off with our tails between our legs?

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I'm getting a bit hacked off with the contracting game myself.

It's the usual combination of rates being driven down (including inflation, I've taken a 40% hit since 2008), and incompetent and aggressive agents (currently being badgered about a contract that's paying equivalent to a graduate salary).

Then again, I spoke to an agent about permanent positions the other day, and he suggested that they'd be a no-go area unless I got a long term (two year) contract under my belt first.

I'd agree about the number of immigrant workers too. In my last contract, more than half the team was from India. On the other half there were two Brits, including myself, a Frenchman and a Pole.

40% down? If you were earning an extra 40% in real terms several years ago then you should be laughing now. We sometimes get accustomed to certain lifestyle and then find it is difficult to go back - that is not to say that the new lifestyle is still not a very comfortable one. You should also have a lot of extra cash lying around for you play with/invest now.....

[minestrone]

The bobs are here to stay, the people who make the decisions to hire them obviously know what is thought of them yet they still hire.

Things will pick up in the next year anyway.

[Scoobos]

I did try to "whistle-blow" on this and spoke to my local MP, although he was confused about what it had to do with him as it was outside his constituency and also gave an interesting rebuff:

"It's driving down taxpayers costs for these health service operations"

I also reported to ICT Abuse and didn't hear a thing.

To re-iterate, here's some of my experiences of gaining working visas in other countries:

Canada - needed a letter from the boss proving that he'd advertised at a DOMESTIC market rate for the role, that he'd interviewed Canadians that applied, giving fair evaluations on whether missing skills were trainable on the job etc. etc. etc. Then it goes to Labour Market Opinion - Labour Market Opinion Basics

Australia - took 6 months, needed to buy and hold a Return flight home at all times - if you are fired you leave - they won’t let you go on holiday to new Zealand without a letter from the boss if you are sponsored to validate your re-entry. After 1 contract they memorably held me at Brisbane airport for attempting to go to new Zealand without a return ticket (as I was unsure how long I was going to be there for) stating that my working visa expires tomorrow so I need to buy a ticket to the UK in case NZ send me back.. (I'm a British national, but it shows how their immigration is aggressive in cutting down any chance of abuse).

Indonesia - the country where HP make most of its server kit, Visas and Documentation - Information on working documents for expatriates in Indonesia - very close to Canada and again quite a slow and expensive process. If we levied a tax on our institutions for hiring foreign workers at that rate, things would be different (Id say 100 dollars US in Indonesia is equivalent to about £300 a week - assuming 30 a day is the average cost of living) I lived off 500 dollars a month like a king when I was there.

Bermuda - (commonwealth) Almost overtly racist and it takes months to get a working visa and even then you have no rights for at least 10 YEARS - no use of any public sector stuff without paying. Funny (not at the time though) immigration officers at the airport welcome you with the following greeting "What makes you think you have the right to enter Bermuda" when you actually have a visa or worse still when you are a British bermudan! - http://www.limeyinbermuda.com/latest...g_time_at.html is

I could keep going and going - and this is what really annoys me. I've seen companies here in the UK say on a Wednesday afternoon that they need extra resource and BANG - the next Monday there's 10 people moving into the 2 bedroom company flat.

I planned on emigrating to Canada after loving my time there, but when the first financial crisis hit they changed the NOC list (jobs you can do to get a visa) and went protectionist for Canada First. Canada was a very forward thinking country back then.

It winds me up no end to see that we, on the other hand, constantly undermine the opportunity of our skilled citizens and overall health of our society in the name of a quick buck. a.k.a GDP / Share holders returns.

Don't get me started on the constant news about "I.T. Skills shortages" , as the way I see it the skills shortage is in the cheap foreign labour not us guys who've adapted to hundreds of different roles and enriched our knowledge to the cutting edge.

<end whine>

[Graemsay]

40% down? If you were earning an extra 40% in real terms several years ago then you should be laughing now. We sometimes get accustomed to certain lifestyle and then find it is difficult to go back - that is not to say that the new lifestyle is still not a very comfortable one. You should also have a lot of extra cash lying around for you play with/invest now.....

I've got a decent wedge of savings, but have had a few bench periods, and my last contract was paying Northwest wages with London costs. Yes, I know...

My problem is that I've allowed my rate to be talked down too heavily by agents.

[doodab]

letting an utter monkey loose to figure it out for himself will not be a suitable way to develop the next air craft landing system or DWP system.

Are you suggesting that government IT procurement needs a radical shake up?

[Stan.goodvibes]

OK back from Singapore and India holiday. Before I post anything else can I just clarify - I have no problem with Indian people, I have worked with some great Indians and the people of Goa were fantastic, especially given what they put up with - but...

I'm not sure what scares me more: that these people have nuclear weapons or that anyone would ever consider outsourcing anything to India. Aside from the massive corruption (I had a very interesting evening chatting to the hotel owner about how much bribery and graft he had to deal with to get the hotel built and inspected every year), absolutely nothing works properly. From wiring a lightswitch to work the right way, to boiling an egg, to following some basic driving rules, to managing to build/maintain any infrastructure, or to even follow a simple system like the security checks at the airport, which most other countries in the world manage perfectly easily, absolutely none of it works.

I can't imagine what it's like in one of those bob-shops in Mumbai, a complete far-cup I suspect, and Mumbai has all the charm of a backed-up toilet that someone has been using as a rubbish tip. I'd never go there again. All this talk of the BRICS taking over the world? ... naaaa can't see that anytime soon.

But I might go work in Singapore. That could be fun for a year or two!

[ChimpMaster]

OK back from Singapore and India holiday. Before I post anything else can I just clarify - I have no problem with Indian people, I have worked with some great Indians and the people of Goa were fantastic, especially given what they put up with - but...

I'm not sure what scares me more: that these people have nuclear weapons or that anyone would ever consider outsourcing anything to India. Aside from the massive corruption (I had a very interesting evening chatting to the hotel owner about how much bribery and graft he had to deal with to get the hotel built and inspected every year), absolutely nothing works properly. From wiring a lightswitch to work the right way, to boiling an egg, to following some basic driving rules, to managing to build/maintain any infrastructure, or to even follow a simple system like the security checks at the airport, which most other countries in the world manage perfectly easily, absolutely none of it works.

I can't imagine what it's like in one of those bob-shops in Mumbai, a complete far-cup I suspect, and Mumbai has all the charm of a backed-up toilet that someone has been using as a rubbish tip. I'd never go there again. All this talk of the BRICS taking over the world? ... naaaa can't see that anytime soon.

But I might go work in Singapore. That could be fun for a year or two!

Bribery is what's causing western companies to move so much of their operations offshore. Management get sent to India to view their high-tech offices, and they get wined and dined and have their pockets lined.

Quality of work suffers and yet the cost savings are minimal, and are being eroded by high inflation in India. It is blatantly obvious that there is underhanded-ness going on here. Why else would anyone undermine their own business and their own country?

[darrenb]

Bribery is what's causing western companies to move so much of their operations offshore. Management get sent to India to view their high-tech offices, and they get wined and dined and have their pockets lined.

Quality of work suffers and yet the cost savings are minimal, and are being eroded by high inflation in India. It is blatantly obvious that there is underhanded-ness going on here. Why else would anyone undermine their own business and their own country?

In the end it costs far more, so any talk of cost savings is a bit misleading.

Every year the English newspapers have a new scandal: MP's expenses, Murdochgate, etc. Why shouldn't the next one be about British directors getting paid off by Preferred Suppliers or something of that nature? People already know that large IT projects nearly always fail, and the public is slowly making the connection that there might be something wrong with the procurement process.

The problem is that the public view IT as a very boring area, even though it is crucial for any nation's transition to a Knowledge Economy and what ultimately makes or breaks a country's wealth. The newspapers probably won't pick it up until there's some kind of sex scandal involved. So we could be waiting a long time.

Even so, it seems like there is an Exploitation Bubble that can't inflate indefinitely and has to pop at some point -- the puzzling question is How. IT isn't really like mining or shipbuilding by the way. IT isn't going away -- its role in society is steadily expanding. Sooner or later a crisis point will be hit and the issue of corruption will have to be addressed head on.

[bobspud]

What you call bribery others call networking.

Ironically there doesn't need to be bribes paid to directors to get the business over there. UK IT is full of such a bunch of over paid bed wetting whinging poofs its hard to get worse, even when your alternative is a bunch of disorganised poorly spoken indjuns running amok amongst your projects like axe wielding maniacs.

I'd like to say the UK can compete on quality but every project I work on these days is split between the following camps...

1. Bed wetters. Perm & Contractors These people could be really good at what they do if they didn't spend all day whining about how they are hard done by they are. Or how doing the job is interfering with what they have to do tonight/lunchtime/the weekend or all three at once. These people really are the crux of the problem and I no longer tollerate them anywhere near me. They get told to man the **** up or go else where.

2. The climbers. Normally Perm but have met one or two contractors that seem to have forgot where they belong. These are the tulips that spend 80% of the project engaged in politics or self promotion. They too now get short ******* shrift around me and also get told to pack it in or leave. I always make sure these people get burned as hard as possible just because I don't like them. The other big trait of this lot is the ones that MUST use this great new tech because it will look good on their new CV and they want to leave as soon as they think they can get away with telling the agent how they ran X or Y project using this great paradigm...

3. The doers. These are the guys that turn up, know what you want to achieve and then get on with it, keeping personal drama to a minimum. if you ever had a successful project it was because these chaps got together out of the way of the other two bunches of arsholes and figured how to get the job done despite of them...