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Merged threads discussing Israel

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    Originally posted by SantaClaus View Post
    Sorry, I've been away for a day.

    Have we solved world peace yet?
    No, we are sitting around the fire roasting some old chestnuts. Do feel free to grab one and jump on in.
    Free advice and opinions - refunds are available if you are not 100% satisfied.

    Comment


      Dont worry. Tony Blair is on the case. It will be solved any day now.....

      Comment


        What a lot of bollox. Especially the title of the thread.

        If people in an adjacent country were randomly firing rockets into England at a rate of dozens per day, would you lot do nothing?

        If not, what would you do, with your great first-hand experience of military, security and political matters?
        Last edited by Doggy Styles; 16 July 2014, 22:17.

        Comment


          Whilst the British mandate in Palestine helped foster a lot of the problems we see now, we shouldn't also underestimate the effect the Nazis had on Palestinian attitudes some deliberate some accidental

          From Wikipedia...

          The Palestinian Arab and Nazi political leaders publicly claimed common cause against International Jewry. The most significant practical effect of Nazi policy on Palestine between 1933 and 1938, however, was to radically increase the immigration rate of German and other European Jews and to double the population of Palestinian Jews. The Mufti had sent messages to Berlin through Heinrich Wolf, the German Consul in Jerusalem endorsing the advent of the new regime as early as March, 1933, and was enthusiastic over the Nazi anti-Jewish policy, and particularly the anti-Jewish boycott in Germany. “[The Mufti and other sheikhs asked] only that German Jews not be sent to Palestine.“

          Nazi policy for solving their Jewish Question until the end of 1937 emphasized motivating German Jews to emigrate from German territory. During this period the League of Nations Mandate for the establishment of a Jewish Homeland in Mandatory Palestine to be used as a refuge for persecuted Jews was still internationally recognized. The Gestapo and the SS inconsistently cooperated with a variety of Jewish rescue organizations and efforts (e.g., Hanotaiah Ltd., the Anglo-Palestine Bank, the Temple Society Bank, HIAS, Joint Distribution Committee, Revisionist Zionists, and others), most notably in the Haavurah Agreements, to facilitate emigration to Mandatory Palestine.

          Nora Levin wrote in 1968: "Up to the middle of 1938, Palestine had received one third of all the Jews who had emigrated from Germany since 1933 -- 50,000 out of a total of 150,000." Edwin Black, benefitting from more modern scholarship, has written that 60,000 German Jews immigrated into Palestine between 1933 through 1936, bringing with them $100,000,000 dollars ($1.6 billion in 2009 dollars). This precipitous increase Jewish Palestinian population stimulated Palestinian Arab political resistance to continued Jewish immigration, and was a principal cause for the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, which in turn led to the British White Paper decision to abandon the League of Nations Mandate to establish a Jewish Home in Palestine. The resultant change in British policy effectively closed Palestine to most European Jews who suffered persecution throughout World War II. After 1938 the majority of Zionist organizations adhered to a strategy of ‘Fighting the White Paper as if there was not War, and fighting the War as if there was no White Paper.’ Zionists would smuggle Jews in Palestine whenever possible, regardless if this brought them into conflict with the British authorities. At the same time the Zionists and other Jews would ally themselves to the British battle against Germany and the Axis, even while the British blocked the escape of European Jews into Palestine.

          In 1938 the German policy toward the Jewish Homeland in Palestine appears to have substantially changed, as indicated in this German Ministry of Foreign Affairs note from 10 March 1938:

          "The influx into Palestine of German capital in Jewish hands will facilitate the building up of a Jewish state, which runs counter to German interests; for this state, instead of absorbing world Jewry, will someday bring about a considerable increase in world Jewry's political power."

          One consequence of the Mufti's opposition to England's role as the Mandatory power in Palestine and his rejection of the British attempts to work out a compromise between Zionists and Palestinian Arabs was that the Mufti was forced to flee Palestine. Many of his followers, who had fought Jews and the English in Palestine, followed him and continued to work militantly for his political goals. Among the most notable Palestinian fighters in this category was Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni, a kinsman and officer of the Mufti who had been wounded twice in the early stages of the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine. The Mufti sent Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni to Germany in 1938 for explosives training. Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni then worked with the Mufti to support the Golden Square regime, and consequently was sentenced to prison by the British after they retook Iraq. He subsequently became the popular leader of approximately 50,000 Palestinian Arabs who joined the Mufti's Army of the Holy War during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. His fellow Iraq-veteran and German collaborator Fawzi al-Qawuqji became a rival general in that same war against Zionism.

          As noted in the above paragraph by Gen. Felmy, after the Kristalnacht pogroms in November 1938, most Jewish and Zionist organizations aligned with Britain and its allies to oppose Nazi Germany. After this time the organized assistance by the Gestapo to the Jewish organizations who transported European Jews to Palestine became much more sporadic, although bribery of individual Germans often help accomplish such operations even after official policy discouraged them.

          The Mufti opposed all immigration of Jews into Palestine. The Mufti’s numerous letters appealing to various governmental authorities to prevent Jewish emigration to Palestine have been widely republished and cited as documentary evidence of his collaboration with Nazis and his participative support for their genocidal actions. For instance, in June 1943 the Mufti recommended to the Hungarian minister that it would be better to send Jews in Hungary to Concentration Camps in Poland rather than let them find asylum in Palestine (it is not entirely clear that the Mufti was aware of the Extermination Camps in Poland, e.g. Auschwitz, at this time):

          "I ask your Excellency to permit me to draw your attention to the necessity of preventing the Jews from leaving your country for Palestine, and if there are reasons which make their removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland …."


          Haj Amin al-Husseini meeting with Heinrich Himmler (1943).
          Achcar quotes the Mufti’s memoirs about these efforts to influence the Axis powers to prevent emigration of Eastern European Jews to Palestine:


          "We combatted this enterprise by writing to Ribbentrop, Himmler, and Hitler, and, thereafter, the governments of Italy, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Turkey, and other countries. We succeeded in foiling this initiative, a circumstance that led the Jews to make terrible accusations against me, in which they held me accountable for the liquidation of four hundred thousand Jews who were unable to emigrate to Palestine in this period. They added that I should be tried as a war criminal in Nurenberg."

          Achcar then notes that although the Mufti’s motivation to block Jewish emigration into Palestine:

          "…was certainly legitimate when it was addressed as an appeal to the British mandatory authorities …. It had no legitimacy whatsoever when addressed to Nazi authorities who had cooperated with the Zionists to send tens of thousands of German Jews to Palestine and then set out to exterminate the Jews of Europe. The Mufti was well aware that the European Jews were being wiped out; he never claimed the contrary. Nor, unlike some of his present-day admirers, did he play the ignoble, perverse, and stupid game of Holocaust denial…. His armour-propre would not allow him to justify himself to the Jews….gloating that the Jews had paid a much higher price than the Germans… he cites… : ”Their losses in the Second World War represent more than thirty percent of the total number of their people …. Statements like this, from a man who was well placed to know what the Nazis had done … constitute a powerful argument against Holocaust deniers. Husseini reports that Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler … told him in summer 1943 that the Germans had ‘already exterminated more than three million’ Jews: “I was astonished by this figure, as I had known nothing about the matter until then.” …. Thus. in 1943, Husseini knew about the genocide….Himmler … again in the summer of 1941 … let him in on a secret that … Germany would have an atomic bomb in three years’ time…."

          In November, 1943 (when he certainly was aware of the genocidal nature of the Nazi Final Solution) the Mufti said:

          "It is the duty of Muhammadans in general and Arabs in particular to … drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries….Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution [endgültige Lösung] for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world. …."


          ...some things never change
          Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the state.

          No Socialist Government conducting the entire life and industry of the country could afford to allow free, sharp, or violently-worded expressions of public discontent.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Unix View Post
            I notice now they have suddenly called a ceasefire, probably before the outrage spreads.
            The UN asked Israel for a unilateral ceasefire so they could transport aid into Gaza. Israel agreed and Hamas said they would join in. Israel and Hamas to observe brief Gaza truce - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

            No doubt Dodgy will be along soon to say Hamas placed them in front of the rocket or some other justifying piss.
            There is no justification for deliberately targeting civilians, especially children. The IDF say they were targeting Hamas and "misidentified the children as fleeing combatants". Since the fallout of this incident can only do harm to Israel's interest, it seems fairly likely that this was tragic mistake.

            The total children killed so far approaching 40, out of around 200 fatalities.
            Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!

            Comment


              Originally posted by Doggy Styles View Post

              If people in an adjacent country were randomly firing rockets into England at a rate of dozens per day, would you lot do nothing?
              But rockets being fired into Israel = GOOD, rockets being fired out of Isreal = BAD
              (\__/)
              (>'.'<)
              ("")("") Born to Drink. Forced to Work

              Comment


                Originally posted by Gittins Gal View Post
                I'm normally not one for expletives but what the Israelis are doing there is complete and utter pure evil. That article that the OP inks to literally had me in tears there is ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION for what they are doing there at all - it is mass murder. Period.

                It just makes me mad - we bomb Iraq, Libya etc and they tell us it's for humanitarian reasons but do you think western powers will ever point their weapons at the evil that's festering in the middle east that is Israel? A rhetorical question really because we all know the answer is a big fat no.


                Oh, the expletive -the Israelis are murdering ******* scum.
                You tell us what the Israelis should be doing then.
                Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

                Comment


                  Originally posted by DodgyAgent View Post
                  You tell us what the Israelis should be doing then.
                  Well they could start by not killing innocent children, just a suggestion?

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Unix View Post
                    Well they could start by not killing innocent children, just a suggestion?
                    So that would involve not retaliating against rocket attacks?
                    Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by DodgyAgent View Post
                      So that would involve not retaliating against rocket attacks?
                      How many Israelis have died due to these "rocket attacks" by Hamas?

                      Comment

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