Project Management, do we need it?

[woohoo]

The development bit is just a small part of the project.
Requirements gathering
RFP management
vendor selection
vendor management
stakeholder management
contract negotiation
design
build (here sits your tiny bit of development)
test
uat
documentatuion
acceptance into service

And the less formal stuff like listening to bulltulip from loads of people who think they need to have a say, or the BS from people who never got back to you during requirements and design phases and then suddenly wake up when roll out starts and start escalating to anything that has the title manager in their name

Requirements gathering is a skill that many senior developers focus on over their career. I can't see why a senior developer skilled in this can't lead the team gathering requirements. I can't see the need for a PM here. I know some companies that hire a facilitator who's job is to help with this process (not lead it).

Vendor selection/management - again I can't see why this is not done by the dev team. I've done it and even when working with a PM they just ask me for the tech details and they pass it on.

Stakeholder management - again you don't need a PM. I've done this and updated relevant people and agreed milestones etc.

Design/Build - Again dev team.

Test - depends who's doing it but usually the dev team can arrange this.

UAT - same again.

Documentation - again the dev team can do.

Nearly, all the stuff you have listed can be done by the dev team. The rest does not require a PM to lead the project.

[scooterscot]

No.

I need a customer who can understand reasonable milestones for a given time frame.

[Coalman]

I think your confusing Project Management with a Project Manager.

You are saying you/dev team can do all the Project Management activities, therefore there is no need for a PM. This will only work if the devs have experience or are willing to do this. If they are not you need a Project Manager. Whoever does it, the project still needs to be managed.

I think you don't like PMs. Some of them are crap, some are good - just like devs.

Surely it's for the client to decide anyway? They are paying you to write code, not project manage.

As to who leads the project - this should always be the customer with facilitation from the whole project team.

One person has to be responsible for delivery, traditionally this is the project manager, but could be any team member if they are willing to deal with the crap.

[SueEllen]

Requirements gathering is a skill that many senior developers focus on over their career. I can't see why a senior developer skilled in this can't lead the team gathering requirements. I can't see the need for a PM here. I know some companies that hire a facilitator who's job is to help with this process (not lead it).

Vendor selection/management - again I can't see why this is not done by the dev team. I've done it and even when working with a PM they just ask me for the tech details and they pass it on.

Stakeholder management - again you don't need a PM. I've done this and updated relevant people and agreed milestones etc.

Design/Build - Again dev team.

Test - depends who's doing it but usually the dev team can arrange this.

UAT - same again.

Documentation - again the dev team can do.

Nearly, all the stuff you have listed can be done by the dev team. The rest does not require a PM to lead the project.

How does it work if there are 3 plus dev teams helping to develop one product? Who helps to co-ordinate them all especially when people in the teams disagree?

[woohoo]

I think your confusing Project Management with a Project Manager.

You are saying you/dev team can do all the Project Management activities, therefore there is no need for a PM. This will only work if the devs have experience or are willing to do this. If they are not you need a Project Manager. Whoever does it, the project still needs to be managed.

I think you don't like PMs. Some of them are crap, some are good - just like devs.

Surely it's for the client to decide anyway? They are paying you to write code, not project manage.

As to who leads the project - this should always be the customer with facilitation from the whole project team.

One person has to be responsible for delivery, traditionally this is the project manager, but could be any team member if they are willing to deal with the crap.

I don't dislike PMs - I was thinking about PM and the role of the project manager because a pal is almost selling them as the new silver bullet for projects. The PM should lead the project and should develop their leadership qualities, emotional intelligence etc.

I think a development team, granted a good development team can do most of this work, with perhaps a coordinator to do some admin work and liaising.

The client can decide yes but that was not my question. When you hire a PM, they have to justify their role. I don't think there is enough of a role for them to justify.

And when you get a project manager who is concerned with timescales and planning etc this often hinders the development process. The goal should be the product and not the project timescale.

[woohoo]

How does it work if there are 3 plus dev teams helping to develop one product? Who helps to co-ordinate them all especially when people in the teams disagree?

I would say that having a project manager coordinate them is not ideal. The teams should talk to each other and relationships built. If they need to identify a lead dev on each team for this then so be it. But informal channels like skype, slack or even the phone can be used for this.

If there is a disagreement then it should be raised with the client to decide, assuming it's some kind of intractable problem.

But I don't think a PM should be leading the product development. If you need a coordinator then identify them for that task but is it a full time job, I don't think so. But that's why I'm asking the question because not all situations are the same.

[SueEllen]

I would say that having a project manager coordinate them is not ideal. The teams should talk to each other and relationships built. If they need to identify a lead dev on each team for this then so be it. But informal channels like skype, slack or even the phone can be used for this.

If there is a disagreement then it should be raised with the client to decide, assuming it's some kind of intractable problem.

But I don't think a PM should be leading the product development. If you need a coordinator then identify them for that task but is it a full time job, I don't think so. But that's why I'm asking the question because not all situations are the same.

This is actually where a good PM helps. Some of my clients use outside vendors to do some of their work. These outside vendors are sneaky as they try the land and expand thing. A good PM makes them focus on delivering their piece of work on time and stops you from hearing the tulip comments they come out with of why they can't do something.

[tomtomagain]

... When you hire a PM, they have to justify their role. I don't think there is enough of a role for them to justify.

That all depends on the size and scope of the project.

Not all projects require a dedicated fulltime PM, just like not all projects require full-time BA or DBA.

If you think that there is no requirement for PM's ever you are probably just working on small projects and/or in a relatively simple environment.

As an ex-PM I project managed several mutli-million dollar, multi-year projects. The idea that something of that scale could be run without a dedicated PM is ludicrous. On a large project, different skill-sets are required at different times and so pulled in, used and rolled off.

Also in my experience, the most efficient use of technical people .... is to let them get on with technical work. Why would you want to interrupt them with work such as budgeting, status meetings, negotiating contracts and so forth?

[woohoo]

That all depends on the size and scope of the project.

Not all projects require a dedicated fulltime PM, just like not all projects require full-time BA or DBA.

If you think that there is no requirement for PM's ever you are probably just working on small projects and/or in a relatively simple environment.

As an ex-PM I project managed several mutli-million dollar, multi-year projects. The idea that something of that scale could be run without a dedicated PM is ludicrous. On a large project, different skill-sets are required at different times and so pulled in, used and rolled off.

Also in my experience, the most efficient use of technical people .... is to let them get on with technical work. Why would you want to interrupt them with work such as budgeting, status meetings, negotiating contracts and so forth?

Can you give me some examples where a dedicated PM was required and what they did that necessitated a PM on these multi-million dollar projects?

Budgeting, contract negations do you need a dedicated PM for this, perhaps just an administrative person?

How would you decide if you where the client when a dedicated PM was required? Do you think a PM should lead a software development project?

[SueEllen]

Can you give me some examples where a dedicated PM was required and what they did that necessitated a PM on these multi-million dollar projects?

Budgeting, contract negations do you need a dedicated PM for this, perhaps just an administrative person?

How would you decide if you where the client when a dedicated PM was required? Do you think a PM should lead a software development project?

That administrative person is called a PM. They then may have other people under them doing bits of the work but the buck stops with them.

However that's not their only job on the project.