Komrade Kolonel Korbyn Komrade Kolonel Korbyn - Page 3
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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladyuk View Post
    The community as a whole and the state are not equivalent. It seems to me extraordinary that anyone could think so. State control is not a necessary feature of socialism. And according to your definition it can only be a feature of socialism where the community as a whole is in control of the state. Which clearly was not the case under Mao or Stalin, who were dictators.
    I agree. They are different. However as there’s never been such a society the dictators are the closest we have as a comparison.
    And to my point about state control not working it makes no odds whether contollled by dictator or the masses.
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  2. #22

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    Neither Mao nor Stalin presided over societies in which the working class were in control. Ergo they were not socialist. Unless you have incontrovertible evidence that they were socialist societies?
    I wonder if you are a guy I know at my village club. He's a nice bloke but a fervent communist. Whenever I point out the failures of the USSR or China he tells me they weren't true communism. Theoretically no, they weren't, but in practice, for reasons I stated in last post (plus the reality that the average man does not have the ability to control society) they were what communism always has been and always will be.

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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance View Post
    I agree. They are different. However as there’s never been such a society the dictators are the closest we have as a comparison.
    And to my point about state control not working it makes no odds whether contollled by dictator or the masses.
    We have no idea if that is true due to the lack of historical examples. You haven't said anything relevant about socialism.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by xoggoth View Post
    I wonder if you are a guy I know at my village club. He's a nice bloke but a fervent communist. Whenever I point out the failures of the USSR or China he tells me they weren't true communism. Theoretically no, they weren't, but in practice, for reasons I stated in last post (plus the reality that the average man does not have the ability to control society) they were what communism always has been and always will be.

    No ideals will ever work if you ignore the realities of human nature.

    No. I'm not a communist. I am pointing out that it is hard to blame socialism for murdering millions of people when the societies indicated were not under the control of the working class.

    Whether such a society is possible is a different question.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladyuk View Post
    We have no idea if that is true due to the lack of historical examples. You haven't said anything relevant about socialism.
    I’ve said lots of things about some definitions of socialism.

    Here’s my preferred definition. Socialism is a society where those who can’t take care of themselves are cared for with dignity and respect. I do, and have, voted for that. But I don’t believe that state control can ever work. So I call myself a free-market socialist.
    Others call me a blairite, or a left wing Tory. I don’t really care about that. I do car that there’s no mainstream political party that represents my, reasonably moderate, views.

    And I don’t trust Corbyn or Mcdonnell no matter how moderate they try and make themselves seem.
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance View Post
    I’ve said lots of things about some definitions of socialism.

    Here’s my preferred definition. Socialism is a society where those who can’t take care of themselves are cared for with dignity and respect. I do, and have, voted for that. But I don’t believe that state control can ever work. So I call myself a free-market socialist.
    Others call me a blairite, or a left wing Tory. I don’t really care about that. I do car that there’s no mainstream political party that represents my, reasonably moderate, views.

    And I don’t trust Corbyn or Mcdonnell no matter how moderate they try and make themselves seem.
    But your comment about Mao an Stalin is still irrelevant to socialism as the community were not in control.

    It sounds like you are somewhere between a contemporary social democrat (a branch of socialism) and a 1950s one nation Tory.

    I don't really think Corbyn is an extremist, just an incompetent hobby issue politician who is unfit for leadership.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladyuk View Post
    But your comment about Mao an Stalin is still irrelevant to socialism as the community were not in control.

    It sounds like you are somewhere between a contemporary social democrat (a branch of socialism) and a 1950s one nation Tory.

    I don't really think Corbyn is an extremist, just an incompetent hobby issue politician who is unfit for leadership.
    so we're approaching some agreement (except for the one nation tory bit).
    If such a thing existed in mainstream politics I'd be a social democrat (sort of) as long as they allow a free market...

    Oh god. If only Labour had elected the other Milliband we wouldn't be in the the world of tulipe we're in.
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance View Post
    so we're approaching some agreement (except for the one nation tory bit).
    If such a thing existed in mainstream politics I'd be a social democrat (sort of) as long as they allow a free market...

    Oh god. If only Labour had elected the other Milliband we wouldn't be in the the world of tulipe we're in.
    I think the interesting theme is the steady decline In the quality of political leadership. I blame the way politics has become a career choice and path.

    If I was in charge, you would only be eligible to stand if resident in a constituency for at least five years. It would stop the parachuting in of professional political advisers and there might then be candidates with real world experience in whatever field.
    Where there's muck there's brass.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladyuk View Post
    I think the interesting theme is the steady decline In the quality of political leadership. I blame the way politics has become a career choice and path.

    If I was in charge, you would only be eligible to stand if resident in a constituency for at least five years. It would stop the parachuting in of professional political advisers and there might then be candidates with real world experience in whatever field.
    This, 100%.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by minestrone View Post
    This, 100%.
    I feel dirty now. And not it a good way.
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