Another gullible politician negotiating poorly with India

[CoolCat]

FFS, don't bring facts into this discussion.

Btw, who's got the keys to the outrage bus?

yea sal throws xenophobic accusations around without any basic understanding of the facts at all

[CoolCat]

This is quite a xenophobic statement...

You want them to pay "at least" as much tax as locals, do you hint they have to pay more tax (they already do pay the same amount of tax)? On top of that you want them to pay out of pocket for some public services that the tax they are paying goes towards? How is that fair? Hint a lot of them already pay extra for access to NHS.

As for skill shortage in IT and undercutting "locals", most if not all non-Brits in IT that I have worked with are being paid the same salary/rate as the Brits in the same roles. Yet someone preferred them over the "locals", it's not undercutting, so obviously there is skill shortage.

Re "On top of that you want them to pay out of pocket for some public services that the tax they are paying goes towards?" I want them to pay market value. Foreign workers sometimes come here to work precisely when a family member needs expensive medical care, the tax they do pay does not cover the higher risks of bringing in someone already needing treatment.

Same for schooling, coming here during the years schooling would be most expensive back home is quite common.

[sal]

Re "they already do pay the same amount of tax" no they dont, for instance work visa holders get the first 12 months in this country free of both employers and employees national insurance, they are allowed payments tax free as supposed expenses that Brits working far from home within the UK are not, they get a full years tax allowance even if only in this country for part of a tax year, and so much more, their outsourcing parent company are usually setup to pay corporate taxes in tax havens not here

Re "are being paid the same salary/rate as the Brits in the same roles" not in my experience, and the sheer volume coming in depresses pay

there is no skills shortage in IT, and even the governments own immigration advisors agree

NI =/ tax, In turn they are not eligible for state pension and have to pay for NHS. Can't comment on tax free expenses, not familiar with the particulars. You (assume you are "local") too get full tax year allowance even if you only work for several months. The fact whether their employer is paying tax in the UK or not is irrelevant here.

What you say might be true for the low skill roles, don't know, the people I'm talking about are in high skilled/senior roles. Pay depression in permanent roles is directly tied to overall pay structure - most organisation will not allow "techies" to earn more than their managers, so when the overall organisation/country pay stagnates/depresses it automatically affects IT. Do you have a concrete proof that the pay stagnation in IT is caused by immigration?

I wouldn't trust government immigration figures as far as I can throw them. On the other hand I have often been in a position to look for a replacement or an addition to my team and interviewing for weeks or even months until we can get a decent person for a role paying excellent rate. Oh we were getting tons of CVs, they just weren't any good. God forbid you want to find a decent senior IT for a perm role even for above average salary.

So if by no skill shortage you mean there is no shortage of numpties with overpadded CVs and no real skills to speak of - you are correct. But if like me you are looking for actual skills - there is a definite shortage.

[BlasterBates]

you need a presence here in order to be able to move work offshore, many work visa holders are engaged in doing nothing more than moving British jobs offshore

No you don't, it would happen anyway. All our offshoring has been achieved without anyone setting foot here in the office.

There is absolutely no way you would be able to stop foreigners coming here on extended business visas, without being somewhat like N.Korea.

Flat screen TVs used to be prohibitively expensive, but now you can pick one up for 300 quid. The same is true in contracting, a skill you would have got 500 quid day for 10 years ago most definitely wouldn't get you a contract now.

Contractors need to skill up or go down to the fruit farm. Contractors have been whining about offshoring since the 1980's, the only thing that changes is the skill set of the contractor.

[sal]

Re "On top of that you want them to pay out of pocket for some public services that the tax they are paying goes towards?" I want them to pay market value. Foreign workers sometimes come here to work precisely when a family member needs expensive medical care, the tax they do pay does not cover the higher risks of bringing in someone already needing treatment.

Same for schooling, coming here during the years schooling would be most expensive back home is quite common.

The cases you quote of "health tourism" are the usual edge cases that the propaganda machine is feeding you and you are eating the numbers like candy. The real fact is that they are an extreme minority. Even then, they have to PAY for the NHS treatment, the fact that the NHS is crap and claiming back this payments is a different story.

AFAIK school is free in India, so not sure what you mean by that statement. (quality of the teaching is different matter, but there is no cost either way).

yea sal throws xenophobic accusations around without any basic understanding of the facts at all

xenophobia
zɛnəˈfəʊbɪə/Submit
noun
dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

[CoolCat]

NI =/ tax, In turn they are not eligible for state pension and have to pay for NHS. Can't comment on tax free expenses, not familiar with the particulars. You (assume you are "local") too get full tax year allowance even if you only work for several months. The fact whether their employer is paying tax in the UK or not is irrelevant here.

What you say might be true for the low skill roles, don't know, the people I'm talking about are in high skilled/senior roles. Pay depression in permanent roles is directly tied to overall pay structure - most organisation will not allow "techies" to earn more than their managers, so when the overall organisation/country pay stagnates/depresses it automatically affects IT. Do you have a concrete proof that the pay stagnation in IT is caused by immigration?

I wouldn't trust government immigration figures as far as I can throw them. On the other hand I have often been in a position to look for a replacement or an addition to my team and interviewing for weeks or even months until we can get a decent person for a role paying excellent rate. Oh we were getting tons of CVs, they just weren't any good. God forbid you want to find a decent senior IT for a perm role even for above average salary.

So if by no skill shortage you mean there is no shortage of numpties with overpadded CVs and no real skills to speak of - you are correct. But if like me you are looking for actual skills - there is a definite shortage.

Re “NI =/ tax” NI is a tax like all others.
Re “In turn they are not eligible for state pension” not 100% true, if they transition onto indefinite leave to remain or British citizenship the contributions they made while here on work visas do count towards their pension entitlement. Indeed large numbers of immigrants end up getting ILR or Citizenship at an old age, so they end up getting state benefits through old age having never contributed to our tax system when they were young.
Re “and have to pay for NHS” only a small admin charge for adding them to the system, and taxes they pay only work if they (and any family they bring) have broadly average chances of needing treatment. They reality is many time their work here to be precisely when a relative they bring needs expensive treatment, and in the case of higher than average numbers having pre-existing conditions needing expensive care the amounts of tax they contribute does not adequately balance the books for the UK (to say nothing of filling our capacity rationed system).
Re “Can't comment on tax free expenses, not familiar with the particulars” well you should be to make the wild claims you do.
Re “You (assume you are "local") too get full tax year allowance even if you only work for several months.” Yea but I will genuinely have only worked part years then, often these people will have worked in multiple countries over the course of a year, and the tax allowance systems of each country favours them as if they only worked part tax year when in fact they have worked a full year.
Re “The fact whether their employer is paying tax in the UK or not is irrelevant here” of course the fact Cognizant, TCS, Infosys, and so on use sophisticated ways of moving their tax liability to tax havens is relevant, when their main business is importing cheap staff as we are discussing.
Re “What you say might be true for the low skill roles, don't know, the people I'm talking about are in high skilled/senior roles” I am talking about all parts of the skills spectrum.
Re “Pay depression in permanent roles is directly tied to overall pay structure - most organisation will not allow "techies" to earn more than their managers, so when the overall organisation/country pay stagnates/depresses it automatically affects IT. Do you have a concrete proof that the pay stagnation in IT is caused by immigration?” sheer numbers have and do depress wages, and again the governments own immigration advisors are happy that this is proven, so I don’t feel the need to go through the proof here.

[sasguru]

So if by no skill shortage you mean there is no shortage of numpties with overpadded CVs and no real skills to speak of - you are correct. But if like me you are looking for actual skills - there is a definite shortage.

Correct. I suspect that Coolcat with what seems to be a years' long grudge and obsession against Indian companies/individuals is one of the said numpties.
He demonstrates his lack of intelligence and analytical nous with most posts.
What successful contractor would keep moaning ad nauseum about a single issue?
So not only probably poorly skilled technically but no self-knowledge either

[CoolCat]

The cases you quote of "health tourism" are the usual edge cases that the propaganda machine is feeding you and you are eating the numbers like candy. The real fact is that they are an extreme minority. Even then, they have to PAY for the NHS treatment, the fact that the NHS is crap and claiming back this payments is a different story.

AFAIK school is free in India, so not sure what you mean by that statement. (quality of the teaching is different matter, but there is no cost either way).



xenophobia
zɛnəˈfəʊbɪə/Submit
noun
dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

Re "that the propaganda machine is feeding you" not at all I know its going on first hand in significant volume, how? I have been inside the Indian outsourcing movement. I suggest on the contrary its you who is choosing to believe a happy positive view of the world which is easily disproven by facts.

You need to learn more about school costs in India. And the reality of the hotspots around the better schools here such people try to aim for.

You are the one making wild guesses and generalisation based on prejudice not me.

[sasguru]

No you don't, it would happen anyway. All our offshoring has been achieved without anyone setting foot here in the office.

There is absolutely no way you would be able to stop foreigners coming here on extended business visas, without being somewhat like N.Korea.

Flat screen TVs used to be prohibitively expensive, but now you can pick one up for 300 quid. The same is true in contracting, a skill you would have got 500 quid day for 10 years ago most definitely wouldn't get you a contract now.

Contractors need to skill up or go down to the fruit farm. Contractors have been whining about offshoring since the 1980's, the only thing that changes is the skill set of the contractor.

Correct again. If you're in IT, every 10-odd years you need to re-invent and re-skill yourself. If you don't like that, if you don't have the brains or intellectual curiosity or the speed of understanding in taking new conceptual ideas on board rapidly, you don't belong in this industry.

[CoolCat]

Correct. I suspect that Coolcat with what seems to be a years' long grudge and obsession against Indian companies/individuals is one of the said numpties.
He demonstrates his lack of intelligence and analytical nous with most posts.
What successful contractor would keep moaning ad nauseum about a single issue?
So not only probably poorly skilled technically but no self-knowledge either

sas mate you are a plonker on every subject you ever post about, I wonder why you bother when everyone else thinks youre a plonker.

i wont bother answering your points, as the mere fact you take the counter view will be taken by most to indicate that I am correct.

and dont bother getting your sockie to defend you we have all seen that so many times before.