Ann Widdecombe

[WordIsBond]

So would it be good if science had a way of making black people white so they could avoid racism?

I'm not sure your premise that race is comparable to sexual orientation is scientifically proven. But for purposes of discussion, I'll accept it.

If black people could safely (in medical terms) be made white, and a black bloke said, 'Screw that, I'm tired of waiting for racism to go away, I want to be white,' I'd say let him. Who am I (or you) to say, 'No way, you have to stay the way you are'?

Why would you have a problem with that? What's wrong with you? Who are these people who want to manage other people's lives and the decisions they want to make? Who says science can't step up and help people who want to change?

Are you opposed to gender reassignment surgery, too? Do you think it is bad that scientific work has been done on that? Or is it only ok for trans people to get scientific / medical help with the things they want to change, but gay or straight people can't?

[meridian]

Yes, there is something that makes people feel bad. The person I mentioned has told me of these:
1. Internal feelings of guilt.

Not an exclusively gay trait. Perhaps stop making them feel guilty about who they are?

2. Disappointment of parents who want grandchildren. Even when parents are supportive the gay person often knows they are disappointed.

Not exclusively gay (believe it or not there are also straight people that have issues conceiving); again, perhaps stop making them feel guilty for who they are.

3. Embarrassment about being different.

FFS, this isn’t the 1970’s. It’s not their fault or their problem.

4. Fear of homophobic behaviour by others.

Which is a valid concern. But is a problem that needs to be fixed in others, not to fix the gay person

5. The wish to biologically produce children with someone they love.

Again, not exclusively a gay issue.

Most of these are societal but it doesn't help the individual who is hurting to say it shouldn't be that way. It IS that way for him and he can't change it. Sure, with counseling he can maybe get past the guilt feelings, but nothing can take away #2 for him. His parents love him and have never said it but he knows they are disappointed.

That is, and I can’t stress this enough, NOT HIS FAULT. Wanting to “use science to fix his gay” so his parents aren’t disappointed is probably the worst excuse I’ve heard.

And the homophobes are out there and some of them are violent, and no amount of legislation or sympathetic articles in the press is going to change that.

Agreed. I was wrong above about fixing the gay to avoid disappointing the parents as being the worst excuse I’d heard. Fixing the gay to placate homophobes is.

But the biggest thing for him is #5. His brother and sister are both proud and happy parents and he's glad but after visiting them he goes home and cries. And yes, he says he could sleep with a woman and probably father a child but he wouldn't love the mother and make a home with her for the child, so he can't have what his siblings have.

Many people can’t. I have good (straight) friends that have adopted. Some who are “confirmed bachelors”. This isn’t something that changing sexual orientation can cure.

So spare me your sarcasm. I've given you a direct answer but I have little patience for this stuff. My comments here are because I actually care about an actual gay person rather than the current LGBTQ orthodoxy.

Sure. You (a straight person) knows more than “current LGBTQ orthodoxy”. Check your privilege. And maybe be a better mate.

[Old Greg]

I'm not sure your premise that race is comparable to sexual orientation is scientifically proven. But for purposes of discussion, I'll accept it.

If black people could safely (in medical terms) be made white, and a black bloke said, 'Screw that, I'm tired of waiting for racism to go away, I want to be white,' I'd say let him. Who am I (or you) to say, 'No way, you have to stay the way you are'?

Why would you have a problem with that? What's wrong with you? Who are these people who want to manage other people's lives and the decisions they want to make? Who says science can't step up and help people who want to change?

Are you opposed to gender reassignment surgery, too? Do you think it is bad that scientific work has been done on that? Or is it only ok for trans people to get scientific / medical help with the things they want to change, but gay or straight people can't?

Leave trans for a minute.

Here is the thing to consider: if science could make black people white and gay people straight, what would be the result? What would religious fundamentalists, fascists, Leninists and other extremists do with this technology? It is within the context of 'conversion therapy' and Iranian government forced mutilation of gay men etc. that Widecombe has faced such criticism.

Trans is different. This is about people feeling they are born into the wrong body. Not that they feel ashamed.

And I'm sorry for being sarcastic. I misunderstood your intent.

[NotAllThere]

Here is the thing to consider: if science could make black people white and gay people straight, what would be the result? What would religious fundamentalists, fascists, Leninists and other extremists do with this technology? It is within the context of 'conversion therapy' and Iranian government forced mutilation of gay men etc. that Widecombe has faced such criticism.

But what would be the result in an egalitarian society? Or are you assuming that the extremists always win*. There's a fair few heavy weight scifi novels that either explore that, or simply have it as the backdrop to the main story.




* Which is a possibility - as Douglas Adams said, extremists care enough to die for their cause, we don't, they win.

[Old Greg]

But what would be the result in an egalitarian society? Or are you assuming that the extremists always win*. There's a fair few heavy weight scifi novels that either explore that, or simply have it as the backdrop to the main story.




* Which is a possibility - as Douglas Adams said, extremists care enough to die for their cause, we don't, they win.

But that isn't the world we and Ann Widdecombe inhabit. So ask yourself what the gay conversion therapy proponents would do with such technology.

[Gibbon]

But what would be the result in an egalitarian society? Or are you assuming that the extremists always win*. There's a fair few heavy weight scifi novels that either explore that, or simply have it as the backdrop to the main story.




* Which is a possibility - as Douglas Adams said, extremists care enough to die for their cause, we don't, they win.

Christianity won by such means.

In the eastern empire they were no better than ISIS.

Hypatia - Wikipedia

[Yorkie62]

I'm all in favour of electro-therapy:

Are you Gay? ZAP

Are you Gay? ZAP

Are you Gay? ZAP

Are you Gay? ZAP

Sorry force of habit ZAP hehe

[Old Greg]

I'm all in favour of electro-therapy:

Are you Gay? ZAP

Are you Gay? ZAP

Are you Gay? ZAP

Are you Gay? ZAP

Sorry force of habit ZAP hehe

He's just not that into you.

[NotAllThere]

Electro-conversion therapy. That's when they blast AC/DC through loudspeakers attached to your temples.

[xoggoth]

"My Gay Dog and Other Animals" is on channel 4 tonight. Not just humans then.

PS

Are you Gay? ZAP

That reminds me of some film. It will come to me later.