Are parts of HMRC institutionally corrupt? Are parts of HMRC institutionally corrupt? - Page 3
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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtW View Post
    RTFM

    Income Tax rates and Personal Allowances - GOV.UK
    National Insurance - GOV.UK
    Tax on dividends - GOV.UK
    Capital Gains Tax - GOV.UK

    It's all there, laid out in simple terms, even a dummy like you should be able to grasp a few simple numbers.
    Where does IR35 enter the equation?
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by More Lamb View Post
    This is a serious question.

    My experience over the past 10 years indicates that they are prepared to be dishonest to achieve their aims.

    40 years ago some Police Forces were found fitting people up. Officers justified it to themselves on the basis that they were dealing with known criminals (not innocent people). They just didn't have the evidence to nail them, so they falsified and concocted stuff.

    Is this the mindset in parts of HMRC? They are dealing with tax cheats, so the ends justify the means? It's ok to be dishonest because it's in pursuit of the greater good?

    I get the impression that HMRC treat this as a game, where winning is all that matters even if that means using every dirty trick in the book.

    Perhaps the public would support them being dirty cops to catch the bad people.

    Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
    Pretty much. When I had my four year IR35 investigation they were biased, incompetent and overstepped boundaries. That can certainly appear to make them look corrupt. For example; my original case officer was removed because of my complaints about her bias - she was not a very nice person. Then, when they finally sent me their determination letter giving reasons why I was caught, they listed 40 points, of which 20 were factual errors including multiple quotes from a contract that wasn't actually mine. That resulted in me making a formal complaint - at which point I was found outside. Four years and they were still sending me erroneous stuff just to grind me down. I became a very different person after that - my views on the way this country is run changed drastically.
    Last edited by Lockhouse; 12th September 2019 at 13:56.
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  3. #23

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    One again: corrupt would have been if they asked for a bribe to close wrongly open investigation or take bribe to target somebody with wrong investigation.

    HMRC is certainly NOT corrupt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zigenare View Post
    Where does IR35 enter the equation?
    Covered by income/NIC tax rates.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lockhouse View Post
    Pretty much. When I had my four year IR35 investigation they were biased, incompetent and overstepped boundaries. That can certainly appear to make them look corrupt. For example; my original case officer was removed because of my complaints about her bias - she was not a very nice person. Then, when they finally sent me their determination letter giving reasons why I was caught, they listed 40 points, of which 20 were factual errors including multiple quotes from a contract that wasn't actually mine. That resulted in me making a formal complaint - at which point I was found outside. Four years and they were still sending me erroneous stuff just to grind me down. I became a very different person after that - my views on the way this country is run changed drastically.
    I became a very different person after that - my views on the way this country is run changed drastically.
    I did many years ago, for not so dissimilar reasons, and a few not so similar to boot.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtW View Post
    One again: corrupt would have been if they asked for a bribe to close wrongly open investigation or take bribe to target somebody with wrong investigation.

    HMRC is certainly NOT corrupt.
    dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.

    does not need bribery if their behaviour is dishonest to try to obtain something they would not be entitled without that is corrupt.

    If they thought they would get promotion or bonus because of dishonest conduct that would still be corruption.

    Problem is that its difficult to work out if it is incompetence or corruption.
    "If you didn't do anything that wasn't good for you it would be a very dull life. What are you gonna do? Everything that is pleasant in life is dangerous."

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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by vetran View Post
    does not need bribery if their behaviour is dishonest to try to obtain something they would not be entitled without that is corrupt.

    If they thought they would get promotion or bonus because of dishonest conduct that would still be corruption.

    Problem is that its difficult to work out if it is incompetence or corruption.
    a very good friend of mine had been a civil servant for many years and he maintained that many would receive some sort of gong just for long service. Also, those that were seen to do "the job" well, were those that generally received the gongs. He'd left the civil service before he received his gong.

  8. #28

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    I would say institutionally corrupt is possibly too strong / not accurate enough. My experience (Civil Service, Local Govt & HMRC but many years ago) is that policy makers have become more 'savvy' about enforcement. It used to be quite easy to tie any HMG dept in knots and frustrate the process. They've made changes in approach to address this.

    Policy drives behaviour in those organisations, there is an element of individual impact - you can get hold of someone who is empathetic or not but ultimately the decision making parameters are not determined by them.

    I think austerity has given a broader license to activities as there's more public sympathy for the difficulty in bringing in public funds, less sympathy for any 'group' generally and less fear about public perception. Another factor in that is the approach to tax across Europe which is focussed on the difference between employment and self employment taxes.

    I think HMRC have concluded that fair and balanced is too open to misuse so they justify a more aggressive approach as being the only way to raise the revenue needed.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lockhouse View Post
    Pretty much. When I had my four year IR35 investigation they were biased, incompetent and overstepped boundaries. That can certainly appear to make them look corrupt. For example; my original case officer was removed because of my complaints about her bias - she was not a very nice person. Then, when they finally sent me their determination letter giving reasons why I was caught, they listed 40 points, of which 20 were factual errors including multiple quotes from a contract that wasn't actually mine. That resulted in me making a formal complaint - at which point I was found outside. Four years and they were still sending me erroneous stuff just to grind me down. I became a very different person after that - my views on the way this country is run changed drastically.
    Corrupt isn't the right term.

    Ideologically driven would be closer. I've met plenty of civil servants who burn with resentment towards everyone who has achieved more than them in life and they see their roles as opportunities to push back. They will simply bend any rule they can in order to do that successfully.

    The Public Sector is overwhelmingly left-wing and I think a majority would love to see capitalism overturned completely.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by vetran View Post
    does not need bribery if their behaviour is dishonest to try to obtain something they would not be entitled without that is corrupt.

    If they thought they would get promotion or bonus because of dishonest conduct that would still be corruption.

    Problem is that its difficult to work out if it is incompetence or corruption.
    Dishonesty is more fraud like behaviour, which also absent in my view.

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