A view of IR35 from a hiring manager

[DoctorStrangelove]

Yes but that's not pertinent to this thread.

Oh...it's in general.

Carry on, as you were.

It's impertinent.

[PlanB]

Probably a lot people of your/our generation will be alright, but what about your kids/grandkids?

What people don't understand is that they should vote thinking about the future generations and not only thinking about themselves. Just because we managed to make some money, doesn't mean our kids will.

I agree with the sentiment but Corbyn was not the vehicle to spend money wisely or effectively. Opening up freedom of movement to planet earth and our welfare system would have had the country bankrupt in short order and that was only the most egregiously bad idea, there were plenty others.

[PCTNN]

Hi CUK. For the first time in a while I posted a new article on LI about IR35 and why from a hiring perspective, actually, hiring workers under a brolly looks more attractive than using a permie right now. You all know why it's bad news, but if you'd give the article a read and maybe toss a couple of likes at it to give it some exposure, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance, here's the link:

IR35: Unintended Consequences; the Death of the Permanent Employee

Regarding the article, I agree with pretty much everything.

If I was an employer, I would do exactly what's described in the article: I'd let most (if not all) permanent staff go and take on contractors instead.

From an employer's perspective, it just makes sense. And if all companies do that collectively, they control the day rates so they can limit contractors leaving.

[original PM]

Regarding the article, I agree with pretty much everything.

If I was an employer, I would do exactly what's described in the article: I'd let most (if not all) permanent staff go and take on contractors instead.

From an employer's perspective, it just makes sense. And if all companies do that collectively, they control the day rates so they can limit contractors leaving.

Yes of course.

Except for many jobs especially at the lower end people need to understand your product, your systems etc

So as a hiring manager by all means get rid of all your staff and hire contractors - but then as we can see those contractors will have exactly the same loyalty to you as you have to them - e.g. none

And so if you want to keep the good ones you need to offer something that other companies do not - and as there are no longer any employee benefits that has to be money - and so actually it may well drive the rates up.

I know a lot of people on here are jaded due to the large consultancies bums on seats mentality meaning all they have to do for the client is put some people in the business and the business thinks they are doing something.

But for all the SME's out there it makes no sense to do this as you end up turning into a body shop and spending half your time and resources getting new people in and training them - and not concentrating on your core business.

[mattfx]

Yes of course.

But for all the SME's out there it makes no sense to do this as you end up turning into a body shop and spending half your time and resources getting new people in and training them - and not concentrating on your core business.

As long as you're offering services based around core products which have mainstream learning capability, why not? You set the expectation for the permietractor to know XYZ before they start. For ISV's selling software it'l be different, but still it's just writing code at the end of the day. The only people that need to know / care about the business are the ones selling the wares and hiring the boots on the ground. Those kind of leadership roles will remain perm so that there's a degree of loyalty.

[Mordac]

My inbox is already getting hit with unsolicited mails offering fixed-term contracts with umbrellas at permie rates. It's already started; sweat-box, zero-hour Britain with assets at eye-watering levels.

Which is why I've started to respond with "I'm considering retirement" (and at the rates I'm being quoted, my investments are making better money than me). I'm really considering retirement...

[vwdan]

As long as you're offering services based around core products which have mainstream learning capability, why not? You set the expectation for the permietractor to know XYZ before they start. For ISV's selling software it'l be different, but still it's just writing code at the end of the day. The only people that need to know / care about the business are the ones selling the wares and hiring the boots on the ground. Those kind of leadership roles will remain perm so that there's a degree of loyalty.

I think this is A) Overly pessimistic and B) Perhaps says more about your view on people than anything else

Plenty of organisations don't engage contractors today, or avoid them where possible - not because of cost, but precisely because of what OriginalPM says. Staff retention IS important in serious businesses and no well run business can get away with treating highly skilled people like a simple commodity.

[mattfx]

I think this is A) Overly pessimistic and B) Perhaps says more about your view on people than anything else

Plenty of organisations don't engage contractors today, or avoid them where possible - not because of cost, but precisely because of what OriginalPM says. Staff retention IS important in serious businesses and no well run business can get away with treating highly skilled people like a simple commodity.

If this was my view on people why would I be bringing this up, saying this IS NOT okay, trying to bring the issue to peoples attention and fighting for change? Did you read my article? I feel that everyone has their place in the workforce, permies included. I don't belittle them or tread them down like 99.65% of contractors here on CUK, I respect them and their life choices - hence why I wrote this piece in the first place.

However from a shrewd, money first people second perspective (how many a**hole directors and C level execs do we know like that?) it is easy to see how attractive cutting permies in favour of zero hour contractors would be.

[vwdan]

If this was my view on people why would I be bringing this up, saying this IS NOT okay, trying to bring the issue to peoples attention and fighting for change? Did you read my article? I feel that everyone has their place in the workforce, permies included. I don't belittle them or tread them down like 99.65% of contractors here on CUK, I respect them and their life choices - hence why I wrote this piece in the first place.

However from a shrewd, money first people second perspective (how many a**hole directors and C level execs do we know like that?) it is easy to see how attractive cutting permies in favour of zero hour contractors would be.

But, I mean, you're literally arguing with Original PM. You said this:

The only people that need to know / care about the business are the ones selling the wares and hiring the boots on the ground.

I think that's demonstrably untrue. I think there are fools out there who believe it, sure - there are also fools who think people halfway across the world can magically deliver a good service for half the cost. Most learn their lesson, eventually...!

[DoctorStrangelove]

I just wonder how long it'll take for this over privileged bunch of scumbag Tory bastards to find that out.

How odd is it to think that we were better off with Bliar & Co?

Ain't life strange?