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Suicides and the Loan Charge: Split from HMRC enquiries

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    Suicides and the Loan Charge: Split from HMRC enquiries

    Originally posted by smt2264 View Post
    Folks, good morning and thanks for accepting my participation in this important network.

    <snip>

    Thousands of people are at risk of, losing their home, personal bankruptcy, breakdown of marriages and long-term partnerships and many will be driven into despair and suicide. Is this not the very essence of a worthy news story?

    Please act and please help save lives.
    One thing that struck me was: lots of people kill themselves. It's very sad. Is there absolute proof their death was primarily caused by the Loan Charge terms being chased by HMRC? Did they cite this on phone calls to the Samaritans and-or leave notes specifying the reasons?

    I ask, because that sort of information doesn't seem to be available in the public domain. Money is just money and is never worth ending a life over, but I felt it important enough to ask the question.

    #2
    Originally posted by rogerfederer View Post
    One thing that struck me was: lots of people kill themselves. It's very sad. Is there absolute proof their death was primarily caused by the Loan Charge terms being chased by HMRC? Did they cite this on phone calls to the Samaritans and-or leave notes specifying the reasons?

    I ask, because that sort of information doesn't seem to be available in the public domain. Money is just money and is never worth ending a life over, but I felt it important enough to ask the question.
    Jesse Norman was named in one note. Some people end up in trouble because of bad decisions. Some might say joining one of these schemes was just such a decision. However, given it was pretty widespread and they needed a retrospective charge conjured up out of the blue to extort money, well that no one can plan for. This strategy was deliberate, targetted and vindictive so no wonder so many people are suffering. No one can re-adjust decisions in the past which is why law should always be effective prospectively.

    But

    Money is not just money. Money is freedom, health and a necessity in our society. I would like people who say that sort of trite aphorism to actually trying living without any. Good luck with it.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by dammit chloe View Post
      Jesse Norman was named in one note. Some people end up in trouble because of bad decisions. Some might say joining one of these schemes was just such a decision. However, given it was pretty widespread and they needed a retrospective charge conjured up out of the blue to extort money, well that no one can plan for. This strategy was deliberate, targetted and vindictive so no wonder so many people are suffering. No one can re-adjust decisions in the past which is why law should always be effective prospectively.

      But

      Money is not just money. Money is freedom, health and a necessity in our society. I would like people who say that sort of trite aphorism to actually trying living without any. Good luck with it.
      With respect, the calculations I've seen suggest that a much lower lifestyle expenditure was required by some in order to allow the paying back of the loan. The additional charges on top were in question, as for some people it was rather high. However the notion that people were to be homeless or have zero access to enough cash to live simply isn't true.

      There seems to be a crossover here between personal responsibility and the fact many people managed to buy much larger houses than they otherwise would've done, then complaining that they'd have to sell their house in order to meet the charges due. Many people have to rent a place to live in the UK, that's just the way things are. A penalty on living circumstances is to be expected, given the balance between personal responsibility and the providers promoting these schemes.

      People may have taken issue with the HMRC charges and with the high amount of tax they owed, but similarly they did owe the money and I'm afraid few of us outsiders disagree with their terms. Nobody was going to be homeless, just some had to sell their residence they gained through blatant tax evasion. Being homeless doesn't mean having to sell your home and then rent somewhere. Being homeless means having zero cash. The continual exaggeration of the plight of people facing the loan charge is one of the reasons why many people, including me, get continually annoyed at conflating this with people taking things badly and then ending their lives, often without evidence that the loan charge was actually the primary cause.

      I wrote all this to provide detailed clarification, as I didn't appreciate the "try living on nothing, if money is just money" inference. Nobody was ever being asked to live on no money. I am stating that if you owe money and it's obvious you do then it's not worth letting this take control of your life.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by rogerfederer View Post
        With respect, the calculations I've seen suggest that a much lower lifestyle expenditure was required by some in order to allow the paying back of the loan. The additional charges on top were in question, as for some people it was rather high. However the notion that people were to be homeless or have zero access to enough cash to live simply isn't true.

        There seems to be a crossover here between personal responsibility and the fact many people managed to buy much larger houses than they otherwise would've done, then complaining that they'd have to sell their house in order to meet the charges due. Many people have to rent a place to live in the UK, that's just the way things are. A penalty on living circumstances is to be expected, given the balance between personal responsibility and the providers promoting these schemes.

        People may have taken issue with the HMRC charges and with the high amount of tax they owed, but similarly they did owe the money and I'm afraid few of us outsiders disagree with their terms. Nobody was going to be homeless, just some had to sell their residence they gained through blatant tax evasion. Being homeless doesn't mean having to sell your home and then rent somewhere. Being homeless means having zero cash. The continual exaggeration of the plight of people facing the loan charge is one of the reasons why many people, including me, get continually annoyed at conflating this with people taking things badly and then ending their lives, often without evidence that the loan charge was actually the primary cause.

        I wrote all this to provide detailed clarification, as I didn't appreciate the "try living on nothing, if money is just money" inference. Nobody was ever being asked to live on no money. I am stating that if you owe money and it's obvious you do then it's not worth letting this take control of your life.
        What a crock of utter BS. Making up stuff to justify your indignant world view.

        You said "Money is just money and is never worth ending a life over". So appreciate it or not that is what you said.

        Perhaps you are Jesse Norman and not Roger Federer. You certainly sound like him.

        Comment


          #5
          This is not the place to muse over philosophical hair splitting RogerFederer.

          I will move these posts to General, you are welcome to post further there/here, but not in the HMRC Enquiries thread.
          "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
          - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...

          Comment


            #6
            oh, look.
            the sanctimonious blowhard with chronic typorrhea is back.
            joy!

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by BR14 View Post
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              Or not as the case may be.
              When the fun stops, STOP.

              Comment


                #8
                Some people commit suicide because of debt. We don't however think, in general, that debts should not be enforced because of the risk of suicide.

                So the question really (for me) is whether this is a real debt. I happen to think it is and others disagree.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Old Greg View Post
                  Some people commit suicide because of debt. We don't however think, in general, that debts should not be enforced because of the risk of suicide.
                  I don't think you can collect debt, if the debtor states they feel suicidal.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by woohoo View Post
                    I don't think you can collect debt, if the debtor states they feel suicidal.
                    Really? That would seem like a way to get out of ever repaying a debt.

                    Comment

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