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    Originally posted by Peoplesoft bloke View Post
    The presumption is that I will lie if simply tell people my identity, so ID cards force me to surrender management of my identity to the government.
    No the presumption is 'some' people will lie, otherwise we're as well just scrapping passports and trusting people to be honest about them being British.
    "I hope Celtic realise that, if their team is good enough, they will win. If they're not good enough, they'll not win - and they can't look at anybody else, whether it is referees or any other influence." - Walter Smith

    On them! On them! They fail!

    Comment


      Originally posted by rhubarb View Post
      Arse elbow

      Rhubarb.

      I can tell my arse from my rhubarb, thank you very much.

      "I hope Celtic realise that, if their team is good enough, they will win. If they're not good enough, they'll not win - and they can't look at anybody else, whether it is referees or any other influence." - Walter Smith

      On them! On them! They fail!

      Comment


        Originally posted by Incognito View Post
        No the presumption is 'some' people will lie, otherwise we're as well just scrapping passports and trusting people to be honest about them being British.
        Passports are an entirely different matter with an entirely different function and in particular they are voluntary. The presumption of innocence demands that if you think I'm lying about who I am, it's up to you to prove it, and that's how it should be.

        Comment


          Btw I remain keen to debate these issues - it is genuinely rare for me to find somone to put the case in favour.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Peoplesoft bloke View Post
            Btw I remain keen to debate these issues - it is genuinely rare for me to find somone to put the case in favour.
            I wish that were true - have you tried talking to any Labour MPs?
            "Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. "


            Thomas Jefferson

            Comment


              Originally posted by Ruprect View Post
              I wish that were true - have you tried talking to any Labour MPs?
              Precisely my point - my MP wouldn't debate it all, just forwarded stuff from The Home Office which is a mixture of lies and spin.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Peoplesoft bloke View Post
                Passports are an entirely different matter with an entirely different function and in particular they are voluntary. The presumption of innocence demands that if you think I'm lying about who I am, it's up to you to prove it, and that's how it should be.
                If you went to open a bank account, would you take it personally that the bank doesn't believe who you said you were unless you produced ID and a utility bill?

                Passport

                The sole purpose is to provide the identity and nationality of its holder. Is it any different from an ID card? (Forgetting the fact they're compulsory)
                "I hope Celtic realise that, if their team is good enough, they will win. If they're not good enough, they'll not win - and they can't look at anybody else, whether it is referees or any other influence." - Walter Smith

                On them! On them! They fail!

                Comment


                  If we're all going to be complete pedants and lets face it in IT we are...

                  From security point of view (101)

                  Identification: Who are you?
                  Authentication: Verification of the identity.

                  So an ID card simply needs to contain your name...

                  I'm happy to carry around something with my name on it in-case I forget...

                  An authentication card? Now that's an entirely different ball game!

                  /Can you tell I'm bored today?
                  B00med!

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Incognito View Post
                    If you went to open a bank account, would you take it personally that the bank doesn't believe who you said you were unless you produced ID and a utility bill?
                    Actually, yes. This has really only started to happen since our government decided to impose a requirement on banks and various other businesses in the name of money laundering.

                    As usual, ordinary people like me with nothing to hide (let's remember we are the vast majority) are treated with suspicion and required to produce proofs of everything. Because we are good boys and girls, we go along with it. Does it do anything to stop money laundering, criminality and ID theft? - not much, but it gives the illusion something's being done and is cheaper and easier than getting the Police and other authorities to actually go after the real offenders.

                    Having created this unnecessary (for the vast majority) requirement, the government and civil service come along with a "solution". Let us (the government) manage your identity, and sell you a card which we will all pretend proves who you are, (even though we know it doesn't). As usual, the law abiding, and people who don't think they have anything to hide, dutifully cough up, pay their ID tax and are inconvenienced each time some jobsworth demands their papers, each time the system is down, they lose their card, or forget to tell the government they have moved. They worry each time the incompetent civil service loses parts of the data held. Meanwhile, business as usual for criminals and illegal immigrants - why would they need to open a bank account, pay money to Hector, or any of the other things we'll need a card for?



                    Passport

                    Originally posted by Incognito View Post
                    The sole purpose is to provide the identity and nationality of its holder. Is it any different from an ID card? (Forgetting the fact they're compulsory)
                    Firstly that's a big thing to forget - a passport has some value as a means of travel, but compulsory ID cards will be required as proof of existence, not just to cross borders - I think that's a pretty big difference.

                    Secondly, as I understand it, until recently there's been no particular requirement for a passport to positively identify you, rather it offers evidence that you have an entitlement to cross borders, so I do think there's a fundamental difference.

                    Thirdly, a passport allows me to trade money and privacy for travel - i.e. there is some benefit to me in having one.

                    Comment


                      I think everybody should have ID cards and be implanted with ID chips.

                      Nuff said.
                      Confusion is a natural state of being

                      Comment

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