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GAME OVER

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    GAME OVER

    I have been following the contractor scheme nightmare (APN, loan charges etc) for almost a decade. I am surprised to still read optimism in this forum after years of HMRC relentlessly chasing contractors and freelancers.

    Between the Accelerated Payment Notices and now pending 2019 loan charges - how can anyone caught up in this mess actually expect to avoid having to pay up?

    Sure there has been some recent pressure from support groups but at the end of the day, how far will this actually go? Approximately 50,000 individuals is a pretty small group. Unfortunately a small group that are going to get little sympathy from others due to the perception we were all over paid individuals. With this current government and brexit - squeezing money out of 'tax avoiders' is unavoidable.

    Once I get clarity from HMRC on my debt (which I still have no idea about) I plan to pay out and be done with this trauma. I'll probably need to downsize and/or take out a personal loan, but select this over worrying every time I go to the mailbox worrying the tax man wants more of my flesh.

    Sure the schemes may have been legal at the time, scheme providers probably have liability and 20 year retrospective tax charges feels immoral - but it's HMRC v Joe Bloggs - it's game over...

    #2
    Understand how you feel however, the game is only over if you choose to leave it !!! Now, more than ever is the time to get together and help fight the charge.

    Getting people to the place you seem to be at now, is exactly what HMRC want and is exactly why they employ companies such as behavioural insights.

    Take this as a bad day (we all have many) then come back fighting tomorrow (PLEASE).
    STRENGTH - "A river cuts through rock not because of its power, but its persistence"

    Comment


      #3
      I don't think anyone here has been optimistic. HMRC are a formidable opponent.

      However there is a very strong case in some schemes - I would count loans as one scheme(i.e. group of schemes) and that has a good chance.

      You should be look at doubling your efforts. Joining LCAG and its campaigns. Already there has been some shift from HMRC - which really is astonishing. You should take heart from that and build on it.

      Comment


        #4
        Never assume it is game over. There are plenty of strategies that can be used to find the Achilles Heel of HMRC - Have a read of "Beating the System". (Ackoff, 2005).

        Comment


          #5
          Not as parliament intended...

          Originally posted by foobar View Post
          Never assume it is game over. There are plenty of strategies that can be used to find the Achilles Heel of HMRC - Have a read of "Beating the System". (Ackoff, 2005).

          Indeed, and since HMRC will be under pressure to apply the retrospection further than just the Loan Charge (Public and Private Sector IR35 is the obvious 'next low hanging fruit'), then the number of people and families affected will grow exponentially. MPs will definitely feel the heat, long after this summer. Mishandled, and it could be the next Tory Poll Tax riot scenario. Like Brexit wasn't enough - are they feeling lucky?!

          Comment


            #6
            Society is doomed if everyone rolled over when something is not right. Let the Supreme Court decide. (Oh wait they already did) employer was liable. until hmrc take an employee to court over the loan charge charge and the highest court rule in hmrc favour then its not over. The added issue is it may never be over because the goal posts get moved all the time. What's to say in a few years time hmrc say your isa is taxable from the last 20 years now. Laws in tax should apply from the date they are passed as law. You can't set up a dotas programme have people use it and then 10 years later say oops scrap that all dotas schemes are wrong and illegal. Because that's what mr stride said in open parliament that they are illegal.
            Last edited by Mrcurrey; 28 July 2018, 18:28.

            Comment


              #7
              Another thought - HMRC read all these posts.

              I guarantee them that a few may roll over. The vast majority of the 100k people affected will fight you every step.

              Comment


                #8
                Admirable that some want to fight this but what happens when you start to incur penalties or cannot afford to pay adviser/group fees?

                Ultimately time will come to pay up. You cannot defer forever.

                Is there any current court action repelling these HMRC decisions? What level of court would need to rule against loan charges? Even then, surely you'd need a big win to cover all types of tax payers caught up in this investigation?

                If HMRC are reading these forums to determine their policy then we really have a broken system.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Lambs to Lions

                  Originally posted by GreenMirror View Post
                  Another thought - HMRC read all these posts.

                  I guarantee them that a few may roll over. The vast majority of the 100k people affected will fight you every step.

                  Very good. There's always a point where the bully pushes too far and the victim turns. When it is widespread abuse, then it comes up suddenly, like a critical mass and is unstoppable, such is the strength of feeling. Not just yet, but when families, lives and futures are so directly threatened, then it is surely coming for HMRC and perhaps their masters. It would be the worst of all worlds, if it were to blow up right when we're in the middle of Brexit fallout.


                  Couldn't happen here?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Groundhogdays View Post
                    Very good. There's always a point where the bully pushes too far and the victim turns. When it is widespread abuse, then it comes up suddenly, like a critical mass and is unstoppable, such is the strength of feeling. Not just yet, but when families, lives and futures are so directly threatened, then it is surely coming for HMRC and perhaps their masters. It would be the worst of all worlds, if it were to blow up right when we're in the middle of Brexit fallout.


                    Couldn't happen here?
                    If we can only get a couple of thousand to sign a petition , what chance of getting enough for a demo march to HoC or HMRC HQ....?????

                    Comment

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