Can you still accept settlement offer after the 30days notice period?

[kryten22uk]

My settlement offer said I had to send in my response to the settlement within 30 days. I'm still doing my investigations (trying to find Trustee to understand their position in relation to writing off loans). I do want to settle, but cant sign up to it just yet.

I called the HMRC contractor loans phone line, and the lady was quite useless/ignorant of the process. She had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned the 'intend to write loans loans off' box. She kept saying that this form isnt about paying back the loans, its about paying the HMRC; yes, I bloomin well know that love! She stated no extensions would be given, but couldnt provide any info as to what would happen if I submitted the letter after the 30 days window.

Any ideas? I'm assuming that it'd make little difference if I accepted after 40days rather than 30? They're not going to reject my letter?

[demby]

My settlement offer said I had to send in my response to the settlement within 30 days. I'm still doing my investigations (trying to find Trustee to understand their position in relation to writing off loans). I do want to settle, but cant sign up to it just yet.

I called the HMRC contractor loans phone line, and the lady was quite useless/ignorant of the process. She had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned the 'intend to write loans loans off' box. She kept saying that this form isnt about paying back the loans, its about paying the HMRC; yes, I bloomin well know that love! She stated no extensions would be given, but couldnt provide any info as to what would happen if I submitted the letter after the 30 days window.

Any ideas? I'm assuming that it'd make little difference if I accepted after 40days rather than 30? They're not going to reject my letter?

Don't even contemplate settling before the review is completed. You could be committing to pay even if the LC is eventually dumped. Once you have signed you may not be able stop payments.

[kryten22uk]

Don't even contemplate settling before the review is completed. You could be committing to pay even if the LC is eventually dumped. Once you have signed you may not be able stop payments.

As webberg says, even if the LC is dumped, this doesn't expunge the liability. I'd rather have (very costly) closure whilst I still can afford it. I can't take the gamble with my family's financial security.

[webberg]

Loan charge and settlement

Agreed.

These are separate sets of taxes with separate rules.

The loan charge is wrong in many ways and is essentially HMRC's attempt to circumvent the rule of law and draw a veil of secrecy over the fact that they have spent a decade chasing the wrong targets (employees instead of employers) and some people have open years, some closed and there is no consistency.

Even if that falls (and let's hope it does or is at least robbed of its retrospection), HMRC claim that the arrangements used still produce tax liabilities.

That would be limited to open years (i.e. years with valid enquiries), and would obviously not collect as much or as easily as the loan charge.

There may be a knock on effect on settlements.

Originally the November 17 version of the settlement, if you applied, you were told that your MUST volunteer closed years for voluntary restitution or else the settlement could not proceed.

That position was quietly dropped as we (and I'm sure many others) complained that this was illegal (or to use Stride's alternative facts speak "defective")and now you can settle on just open years.

If the loan charge falls it would be interesting to see if HMRC try to revert to the "all years or nothing" approach especially as many have now settled and closed that chapter.

[Dmac]

"Open years"

Agreed.

These are separate sets of taxes with separate rules.

The loan charge is wrong in many ways and is essentially HMRC's attempt to circumvent the rule of law and draw a veil of secrecy over the fact that they have spent a decade chasing the wrong targets (employees instead of employers) and some people have open years, some closed and there is no consistency.

Even if that falls (and let's hope it does or is at least robbed of its retrospection), HMRC claim that the arrangements used still produce tax liabilities.

That would be limited to open years (i.e. years with valid enquiries), and would obviously not collect as much or as easily as the loan charge.

There may be a knock on effect on settlements.

Originally the November 17 version of the settlement, if you applied, you were told that your MUST volunteer closed years for voluntary restitution or else the settlement could not proceed.

That position was quietly dropped as we (and I'm sure many others) complained that this was illegal (or to use Stride's alternative facts speak "defective")and now you can settle on just open years.

If the loan charge falls it would be interesting to see if HMRC try to revert to the "all years or nothing" approach especially as many have now settled and closed that chapter.

Is there a full definition of "open years". Is this just years which are open, have enquiries /notices, or are still within time to open (what is that period) or all of the above?

So, for example, is 2013/14 still classed as Open even if a person has had no enquiries on that year whatsoever from HMRC.

[webberg]

Is there a full definition of "open years". Is this just years which are open, have enquiries /notices, or are still within time to open (what is that period) or all of the above?

So, for example, is 2013/14 still classed as Open even if a person has had no enquiries on that year whatsoever from HMRC.

The phrase "open" is one we use. HMRC refer to "protected" and "unprotected" years.

A protected year is open.

AN unprotected year is closed.

A year is open/protected if:

A valid enquiry notice has been issued, i.e. made within time - usually 12 months from submission of a tax return.

A discovery assessment has been made. Usually within 4 years of the year end. HMRC may argue that this could be 6 years although we have seen only one of those.

HMRC claim that sending a COP8 pamphlet is opening an enquiry. We disagree. Until this morning I would have said that this matter remains undecided. This morning however we had a settlement calculation in which we argued that COP8 was not sufficient notice. The settlement regards the years as closed.

Now that is either an error on HMRC's part, an admission that we are right or a practical means of getting a settlement over the line. Anything other than an error is a win (and £20k less for the client).

[demby]

Agreed.

These are separate sets of taxes with separate rules.

The loan charge is wrong in many ways and is essentially HMRC's attempt to circumvent the rule of law and draw a veil of secrecy over the fact that they have spent a decade chasing the wrong targets (employees instead of employers) and some people have open years, some closed and there is no consistency.

Even if that falls (and let's hope it does or is at least robbed of its retrospection), HMRC claim that the arrangements used still produce tax liabilities.

That would be limited to open years (i.e. years with valid enquiries), and would obviously not collect as much or as easily as the loan charge.

There may be a knock on effect on settlements.

Originally the November 17 version of the settlement, if you applied, you were told that your MUST volunteer closed years for voluntary restitution or else the settlement could not proceed.

That position was quietly dropped as we (and I'm sure many others) complained that this was illegal (or to use Stride's alternative facts speak "defective")and now you can settle on just open years.

If the loan charge falls it would be interesting to see if HMRC try to revert to the "all years or nothing" approach especially as many have now settled and closed that chapter.

If HMRC claim that the arrangements used still produce tax liabilities. what's the point of the review? They'll dump the LC and just replace it with something else if that's the case and we'll be back to square one

[webberg]

If HMRC claim that the arrangements used still produce tax liabilities. what's the point of the review? They'll dump the LC and just replace it with something else if that's the case and we'll be back to square one

That is incorrect.

The position BEFORE the loan charge was first raised (March 2016) was that HMRC considered the arrangements to produce a tax charge.

The problem with that was not only making that charge stick (probably requiring litigation) but the risk that a Court might say "the employer is liable" (as indeed they did in Rangers) and the fact that some individuals had years which a final decision could not touch. That inconsistency would be used in Court to claim that the application of law was unfair.

The loan charge was/is an attempt to circumvent the litigation process, the bother of proving that the schemes were "always defective", to collect maximum tax at minimum cost.

In other words a raid on your bank account.

The review is important to stop this happening. Let's hope it works.

If it does not, then we have to fight loan charge and the above.

If it does, then we have to fight the position as it was pre March 2016.

Would it be replaced?

Who knows? Government is elected to make laws and they can and do.

[EBTContractor]

Originally the November 17 version of the settlement, if you applied, you were told that your MUST volunteer closed years for voluntary restitution or else the settlement could not proceed.

That position was quietly dropped as we (and I'm sure many others) complained that this was illegal (or to use Stride's alternative facts speak "defective")and now you can settle on just open years.

In the pack due 30 September 2018 I listed all open and closed year loans.

Are you saying I should just have submitted open year loans?

If I want to go ahead with the settlement, whenever the numbers arrive, I can settle on just the open years?

[webberg]

In the pack due 30 September 2018 I listed all open and closed year loans.

Are you saying I should just have submitted open year loans?

If I want to go ahead with the settlement, whenever the numbers arrive, I can settle on just the open years?

Yes.