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Loan Charge review - round #2

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    #21
    Originally posted by philinlondon View Post
    I read on Twitter HMRC are suspending settlements before they get clarity. I also read IF the LC was cancelled, people who had settled can't get their money back as is "voluntary" (BS for me as you are pretty much settle under duress - which is legally not binding). I would seek advise.


    HMRC are now obliged to agree the same for ALL facing the #LoanCharge. So all settlements must be on hold.… https://t.co/HLM1rS8T1t"[/url]
    Last time I looked, the Courts did not accept Twitter as a source of legislation or authority as to what legislation means.

    Further, HMRC writing to one, or one dozen or one hundred people does NOT set precedent. HMRC is very definitely NOT obliged to agree to treat all people the same and will use a range of excuses (rogue officer going off piste, acting in breach if policy, no policy yet as terms of review not set) to claim no precedent.

    I'm not a lawyer and may have the next bit wrong (apologies) but the rules on estoppel say that where an action or set of actions have become the norm and are accepted by both parties as being so, then even if the law if at variance with that convention, it will apply. This was tested in the CoA recently where HMRC and an agent acted as though an enquiry had been opened when in fact the delivery of enquiry notice had not happened. It was held that for some matters (in this case opening an enquiry), estoppel could not apply if the initiating notice was absent. The taxpayer won. Here, that same principle might apply.

    The speculation around LC review meaning suspension of settlement, postponement of disclosure deadlines, time to pay agreements, APN liability is just that - speculation.

    Please, please wait until something more meaningful and substantial than Twitter carries news before setting off into the sunset.

    Please, please also remember that even if the the LC disappears forever, all open years (see above) remain under enquiry and will need to be agreed. If HMRC does emerge from the LC review bruised and battered (and frankly they should because they have handled these matters appallingly badly) do we think that their last remaining hope of salvaging credibility - pursuing those enquiries they have opened - will be abandoned?

    You would be brave to believe that.
    Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

    (No, me neither).

    Comment


      #22
      Originally posted by webberg View Post
      Last time I looked, the Courts did not accept Twitter as a source of legislation or authority as to what legislation means.

      Further, HMRC writing to one, or one dozen or one hundred people does NOT set precedent. HMRC is very definitely NOT obliged to agree to treat all people the same and will use a range of excuses (rogue officer going off piste, acting in breach if policy, no policy yet as terms of review not set) to claim no precedent.

      I'm not a lawyer and may have the next bit wrong (apologies) but the rules on estoppel say that where an action or set of actions have become the norm and are accepted by both parties as being so, then even if the law if at variance with that convention, it will apply. This was tested in the CoA recently where HMRC and an agent acted as though an enquiry had been opened when in fact the delivery of enquiry notice had not happened. It was held that for some matters (in this case opening an enquiry), estoppel could not apply if the initiating notice was absent. The taxpayer won. Here, that same principle might apply.

      The speculation around LC review meaning suspension of settlement, postponement of disclosure deadlines, time to pay agreements, APN liability is just that - speculation.

      Please, please wait until something more meaningful and substantial than Twitter carries news before setting off into the sunset.

      Please, please also remember that even if the the LC disappears forever, all open years (see above) remain under enquiry and will need to be agreed. If HMRC does emerge from the LC review bruised and battered (and frankly they should because they have handled these matters appallingly badly) do we think that their last remaining hope of salvaging credibility - pursuing those enquiries they have opened - will be abandoned?

      You would be brave to believe that.

      Agree on the above (hence seek advice like your amazing organisation), the question with open year(s) will be the next interesting turning point. IF the LC was cancelled, the question will be the application of APNs - where again is retrospective and that's what the main LC argument is at the very moment.

      Comment


        #23
        Hi, I am hoping somebody can advise me on my position. Prior to the PM’s announcement I have been dealing with the HMRC settlements team to agree a payment plan. Since the announcement I have been contacted by the debt management office demanding payment for an APN which is part of the settlement package which I am trying to agree. I have explained this however they are still pursuing me aggressively for immediate payment. The settlements team insist I agree a payment plan for the APN to go away.

        With the pending review and talks of LC being possibly suspended how can I suspend my APN?

        Comment


          #24
          Originally posted by Mb123 View Post
          Hi, I am hoping somebody can advise me on my position. Prior to the PM’s announcement I have been dealing with the HMRC settlements team to agree a payment plan. Since the announcement I have been contacted by the debt management office demanding payment for an APN which is part of the settlement package which I am trying to agree. I have explained this however they are still pursuing me aggressively for immediate payment. The settlements team insist I agree a payment plan for the APN to go away.

          With the pending review and talks of LC being possibly suspended how can I suspend my APN?
          The APN and the settlement are entirely different.

          You cannot suspend an APN. All legal challenges in those have been lost and DM will pursue using all their powers. Get in touch with them and agree a plan. Normally they will not look at anything over 12 months (for no reason that has ever been explained to me) but with some persistence and help from an MP, this may happen.
          Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

          (No, me neither).

          Comment


            #25
            Originally posted by webberg View Post
            The APN and the settlement are entirely different.

            You cannot suspend an APN. All legal challenges in those have been lost and DM will pursue using all their powers. Get in touch with them and agree a plan. Normally they will not look at anything over 12 months (for no reason that has ever been explained to me) but with some persistence and help from an MP, this may happen.

            DMB will be a pain but you can arrange a decent TTP option with them .. .especially if there is no choice .. prepare a list of what you can afford to pay and dont get sucked into borrowing/remortgaging and putting your world at risk

            Comment


              #26
              Originally posted by CanPayButWouldRatherNot View Post
              DMB will be a pain but you can arrange a decent TTP option with them .. .especially if there is no choice .. prepare a list of what you can afford to pay and dont get sucked into borrowing/remortgaging and putting your world at risk
              +1

              I have heard rumours of people getting HUGE reductions. They don't want to go public as worried these may be withdrawn.

              At the end of the day, HMRC would rather accept something than nothing.

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by BrilloPad View Post
                +1

                I have heard rumours of people getting HUGE reductions. They don't want to go public as worried these may be withdrawn.

                At the end of the day, HMRC would rather accept something than nothing.
                Hi Brillo.

                Huge reductions of the amount they owe? or do you mean TTP time increases?

                Thanks for sharing your info...

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by Joolsey86 View Post
                  Hi Brillo.

                  Huge reductions of the amount they owe? or do you mean TTP time increases?

                  Thanks for sharing your info...
                  There are reports of people paying less than half what HMRC thinks they owe but HMRC are determined to keep such knowledge quiet. Very dependent on circumstances.

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Originally posted by dammit chloe View Post
                    There are reports of people paying less than half what HMRC thinks they owe but HMRC are determined to keep such knowledge quiet. Very dependent on circumstances.
                    Thanks a lot Chloe. Appreciate you sharing.

                    This whole process is consuming, soul destroying and infuriating in equal measure.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by dammit chloe View Post
                      There are reports of people paying less than half what HMRC thinks they owe but HMRC are determined to keep such knowledge quiet. Very dependent on circumstances.
                      It depends how this information had come about.

                      For example, in my case, HMRC first "estimated" (i.e. deliberately wildly exaggerated) my loan figures so that they were more than double my actual loans. When I pushed back and provided some evidence (which they never even queried, I mean imagine if I had just knocked up a PDF myself...? (though I didn't of course)), then they came back with a revised tax demand that was 40% the value of their initial tax demand.

                      I hope the rumours you have heard are not based on situations like mine. I hope there are actual reductions being considered and accepted by HMRC.

                      Comment

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