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Self Assessment Tax Return 2018/19 and Loan Charge

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    #61
    As webberg says, paying the loan charge (LC) doesn't resolve the underlying dispute. (Settling, on the other hand, would put the matter to bed once and forall.)

    However... (and this is where he will probably disagree)

    If you pay the LC, I doubt HMRC will be beating down your door, anytime soon, to finalise the dispute. They will be focusing all their attention on those who haven't paid anything.

    Even if they do eventually revisit your case, you can still settle and the LC you've paid will count towards this.

    You can get advice but, at the end of the day, the choice is yours.

    a) settle in full now (and be done with it)
    OR
    b) pay the LC and potentially have to pay a bit more at some later date
    Scoots still says that Apr 2020 didn't mark the start of a new stock bull market.

    Comment


      #62
      As Mr Deal or Non Deal suggests, I would not agree that his plan amounts to a sensible strategy.

      Go and get some personal advice.
      Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

      (No, me neither).

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by webberg View Post
        As Mr Deal or Non Deal suggests, I would not agree that his plan amounts to a sensible strategy.

        Go and get some personal advice.
        As long as Jedi007 is fully aware that, if he pays the LC, he might* have to pay more at some later date, then I can't see any harm in going down this route.

        * I guess you might take issue with my use of the word "might", and that it should be "will"
        Scoots still says that Apr 2020 didn't mark the start of a new stock bull market.

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by DealorNoDeal View Post
          * I guess you might take issue with my use of the word "might", and that it should be "will"
          The law is clear.

          HMRC say tax is due.

          If that is correct or if it is challenged and that is lost, then tax is due.

          The loan charge just seeks to collect some of that tax via a new and different tax.

          Ultimately however agreement of the tax due in any one year MUST be reached.

          When it is, the loan charge paid is offset against that liability.

          Be very clear

          HMRC is NOT permitted, under current legislation, to substitute the liability for the year with the loan charge.
          Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

          (No, me neither).

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by webberg View Post
            Be very clear

            HMRC is NOT permitted, under current legislation, to substitute the liability for the year with the loan charge.
            Not sure if I'm reading this correctly or not - but isn't it also the case that the Loan Charge will not be refunded if it later turns out the underlying tax was never due to begin with (eg. if the scheme is ever litigated and HMRC lose).

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by RickG View Post
              Not sure if I'm reading this correctly or not - but isn't it also the case that the Loan Charge will not be refunded if it later turns out the underlying tax was never due to begin with (eg. if the scheme is ever litigated and HMRC lose).
              I think I agree that if the loan charge is paid and it is in excess of the final liability for the year, then the excess loan charge is not refunded.

              I would hope that any judgement from Tribunal which says that tax is not due from the individual, will be because the cause of the tax charge (the loan payments) were in fact payments of remuneration that were taxable under general tax rules, i.e. without needing recourse to the anti avoidance rules in Part 7a.

              If so, given that the loan charge relies upon sums falling into Part 7A, the loan charge should also fall away.

              Clearly any case going into Tribunal and seeking to argue that the tax is due from another party should be raising this point.

              Unfortunately the limited number of cases so far heard and published have been constructed so narrowly as to prevent this being argued and members of the schemes in question may in due course need to start (and fund) a new litigation on this point.
              Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

              (No, me neither).

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by RickG View Post
                Not sure if I'm reading this correctly or not - but isn't it also the case that the Loan Charge will not be refunded if it later turns out the underlying tax was never due to begin with (eg. if the scheme is ever litigated and HMRC lose).
                But this is also true if you settle.

                Remember, there are only 3 choices available.

                1) settle now
                2) pay the LC now
                3) fight the LC and the underlying tax liability

                Even with (3) you may have to pay the LC and fight to try and get the money back. You're certainly risking penalties, and enforcement action, if you refuse to pay it. Is there any right of appeal against the LC?
                Scoots still says that Apr 2020 didn't mark the start of a new stock bull market.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by DealorNoDeal View Post
                  But this is also true if you settle.

                  Remember, there are only 3 choices available.

                  1) settle now
                  2) pay the LC now
                  3) fight the LC and the underlying tax liability

                  Even with (3) you may have to pay the LC and fight to try and get the money back. You're certainly risking penalties, and enforcement action, if you refuse to pay it. Is there any right of appeal against the LC?
                  With regards to flighting LC, anyone seen Matt Hall’s twitter post on this ?... “Anyone still within #LoanCharge & awaiting JR challenge will read this decision with interest & disappointment.” Dropbox - R-oao-Cartref-and-ors-v-HMRC (2).pdf - Simplify your life

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by starstruck View Post
                    With regards to flighting LC, anyone seen Matt Hall’s twitter post on this ?... “Anyone still within #LoanCharge & awaiting JR challenge will read this decision with interest & disappointment.” Dropbox - R-oao-Cartref-and-ors-v-HMRC (2).pdf - Simplify your life
                    If we listened to Matt Hall over the last 18 months there would have been no political progress made at all. He believed only litigation of schemes could save anyone.

                    That said, we have to be realistic about JRs and their historical success on tax issues, but there may well be a tipping point and the indiscriminate application of the Loan Charge could be it. It can also be viewed as simply another possible line of attack.

                    There are also other aspects to this which are more closely guarded.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by DealorNoDeal View Post
                      But this is also true if you settle.

                      Remember, there are only 3 choices available.

                      1) settle now
                      2) pay the LC now
                      3) fight the LC and the underlying tax liability

                      Even with (3) you may have to pay the LC and fight to try and get the money back. You're certainly risking penalties, and enforcement action, if you refuse to pay it. Is there any right of appeal against the LC?
                      If you settle there is no LC and thus no potentially non refundable amounts.
                      Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

                      (No, me neither).

                      Comment

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