Same PS, different contract type?

[aikidoka]

Hi all,

I was hoping for some opinions on this scenario:

My PS client has taken the blanket decision that "everyone is inside" - so naturally I'm not prepared to extend my contract that runs out this week.

I've provided them with all the evidence that I'm outside: running the HMRC tool, running the test at IR35testing and also a QDOS review but they're still not willing to take the "risk".

I'm not prepared to raise my rates and accept an "inside" position as that would potentially open me up to the argument that I agree that I'm inside.

However, the client has now offered to pay in advance for a fixed number of days consultancy - so it's a different contract, but the role and tasks remain unchanged.

Thoughts?

[northernladyuk]

Hi all,

I was hoping for some opinions on this scenario:

My PS client has taken the blanket decision that "everyone is inside" - so naturally I'm not prepared to extend my contract that runs out this week.

I've provided them with all the evidence that I'm outside: running the HMRC tool, running the test at IR35testing and also a QDOS review but they're still not willing to take the "risk".

I'm not prepared to raise my rates and accept an "inside" position as that would potentially open me up to the argument that I agree that I'm inside.

However, the client has now offered to pay in advance for a fixed number of days consultancy - so it's a different contract, but the role and tasks remain unchanged.

Thoughts?

Will this fixed number of days be inside or outside, according to the client?

[Fred Bloggs]

Hi all,

I was hoping for some opinions on this scenario:

My PS client has taken the blanket decision that "everyone is inside" - so naturally I'm not prepared to extend my contract that runs out this week.

I've provided them with all the evidence that I'm outside: running the HMRC tool, running the test at IR35testing and also a QDOS review but they're still not willing to take the "risk".

I'm not prepared to raise my rates and accept an "inside" position as that would potentially open me up to the argument that I agree that I'm inside.

However, the client has now offered to pay in advance for a fixed number of days consultancy - so it's a different contract, but the role and tasks remain unchanged.

Thoughts?

Thoughts? Sure, a different contract eh? Silver bullet I reckon, go right ahead. Hector will roll right over while you tickle his tummy.

[LondonManc]

Thoughts? Sure, a different contract eh? Silver bullet I reckon, go right ahead. Hector will roll right over while you tickle his tummy.

This isn't General, Fred. Destroy his suggestion constructively please.


OP - when you say pay in advanced, are you looking at a fixed price deliverable or are they still paying just for your bum on a seat

[aikidoka]

Hi all, thanks for the responses.

It would be Outside and potentially they would be invoicing my company directly rather than through the agency.

They are paying me for a set number of consultancy days to deliver 2 projects that I have already provided estimates for. So, yes... in this case there is a fixed deliverable.

It just feels a little like one of the reasons IR35 came into being where people were leaving an organisation on the Friday, only to come back on the Monday as a "consultant" in the same job.

[northernladyuk]

Hi all, thanks for the responses.

It would be Outside and potentially they would be invoicing my company directly rather than through the agency.

They are paying me for a set number of consultancy days to deliver 2 projects that I have already provided estimates for. So, yes... in this case there is a fixed deliverable.

It just feels a little like one of the reasons IR35 came into being where people were leaving an organisation on the Friday, only to come back on the Monday as a "consultant" in the same job.

If you were outside before, and you are outside now, and the client is taking the IR35 risk now, and you have a fixed price contract, it sounds like you have a goer.

[northernladuk]

Aren't you already paid for a fixed number of consultancy days i.e. 3 months work with a fixed deliverable? It's what we do no? Not sure how changing the wording of the contract is going to make a difference. They've already said the gig is inside and you say you'll be doing the same thing. All it sounds to me is they are trying to get the paperwork to look outside.

Not sure how you are going to get out of your handcuff from the agent either.

You need to be very careful. You need a completely different method of engagement. If there is any sniff of you being paid to carry on your inside role your defense will fall around your ears. Not sure if changing your billing to a lump sum at the end or upfront will make any difference though. It would have to be considerably different and not just a different period of payment i.e. once rather than monthly.

I'd be very careful if I were you. It might work if you get the engagement right... but I'm thinking that's going to be tough bearing in mind you are just carrying on doing what you did before.

[LondonManc]

Aren't you already paid for a fixed number of consultancy days i.e. 3 months work with a fixed deliverable? It's what we do no? Not sure how changing the wording of the contract is going to make a difference. They've already said the gig is inside and you say you'll be doing the same thing. All it sounds to me is they are trying to get the paperwork to look outside.

Not sure how you are going to get out of your handcuff from the agent either.

You need to be very careful. You need a completely different method of engagement. If there is any sniff of you being paid to carry on your inside role your defense will fall around your ears. Not sure if changing your billing to a lump sum at the end or upfront will make any difference though. It would have to be considerably different and not just a different period of payment i.e. once rather than monthly.

I'd be very careful if I were you. It might work if you get the engagement right... but I'm thinking that's going to be tough bearing in mind you are just carrying on doing what you did before.

Not really; fixed price means that you keep coming in until it's done and you can then calculate what your actual day rate is, e.g. £25,000 was agreed as the price and you get it done as quickly as you can, whereas the other way, you'll bill for 54 days over the 3 months at the pre-agreed rate.

[aikidoka]

Aren't you already paid for a fixed number of consultancy days i.e. 3 months work with a fixed deliverable? It's what we do no? Not sure how changing the wording of the contract is going to make a difference. They've already said the gig is inside and you say you'll be doing the same thing. All it sounds to me is they are trying to get the paperwork to look outside.

It's more that the practical people are trying to get around HR's blanket "Inside" view. HR have not run the tool on each individual contract, merely based it on their standard contract for Pertemps staff. My individual contract and actual working practice is a lot more complex.

Not sure how you are going to get out of your handcuff from the agent either.

That's for them to sort out... they suggested it. I'm happy either way. Having said that, my agent rep thought that the u-turn on NI payments was the government abolishing IR35... so I don't think they know what's going on!

You need to be very careful. You need a completely different method of engagement. If there is any sniff of you being paid to carry on your inside role your defense will fall around your ears. Not sure if changing your billing to a lump sum at the end or upfront will make any difference though. It would have to be considerably different and not just a different period of payment i.e. once rather than monthly.

I'd be very careful if I were you. It might work if you get the engagement right... but I'm thinking that's going to be tough bearing in mind you are just carrying on doing what you did before.

Thanks for the pointers. As I said, the tool (and other tests) do put me outside anyway, it's just the risk-averse client admin that put me inside. I've also mentioned that the contract would have to be reviewed and a different one drawn up, especially if I'm working without the agency.

[LondonManc]

It's more that the practical people are trying to get around HR's blanket "Inside" view. HR have not run the tool on each individual contract, merely based it on their standard contract for Pertemps staff. My individual contract and actual working practice is a lot more complex.

That's for them to sort out... they suggested it. I'm happy either way. Having said that, my agent rep thought that the u-turn on NI payments was the government abolishing IR35... so I don't think they know what's going on!

Thanks for the pointers. As I said, the tool (and other tests) do put me outside anyway, it's just the risk-averse client admin that put me inside. I've also mentioned that the contract would have to be reviewed and a different one drawn up, especially if I'm working without the agency.

Suggest to Pertemps that they get someone to draw up two types of contract - one for Inside and one for Outside IR35 gigs - so that they can operate more efficiently in the future and that if the end client makes a determination, they are ready to move quickly with the appropriate boilerplate contract.