Wording of Contract to make it Outside

[MonkeysUncle]

I am working for a PS as a Project Manager. Originally when started it was outside but now it has been deemed inside.
Personally i dont think it should be inside because:

1 - I dont really report to anyone (i present to the project board and CIO on a monthly basis).
2 - I dont have anyone under me
3 - I am the only one in the trust who knows the product/project and how to plan out this project.
4 - I dont need to work from a specific place, I do so purely for the ease of speaking to who i need to when i need to.
5 - Other trusts have advertised this same role and specified it as outside.

The problem is when HR did the HRMC tool to check my status it put me inside and this came form the right to substitution (i think).

With my contract coming up for renewal I am wondering if I can negotiate with the agency/PS to have this added and ensure that the contract is outside IR35.
The role is good and the project is enjoyable but with the cut in rate it is just not beneficial for me to stay on.

thoughts?

[northernladuk]

So you aren't worried about the possibility of the retro tax then?

IR35 is about working practices. Wording of your contract when they won't accept substitution isn't going to cut it I'm afraid.

What did your manager say?

[MonkeysUncle]

So you aren't worried about the possibility of the retro tax then?

IR35 is about working practices. Wording of your contract when they won't accept substitution isn't going to cut it I'm afraid.

What did your manager say?

From what I have read the possibility of retro tax is quite low (i could be wrong on this).
Based on the points above I think my working practices do fall outside of IR35.

haven't had the conversation with HR yet,was just wondering thoughts.

[DotasScandal]

From what I have read the possibility of retro tax is quite low

Go ahead...if you like to gamble with your life savings.

[eek]

From what I have read the possibility of retro tax is quite low (i could be wrong on this).
Based on the points above I think my working practices do fall outside of IR35.

haven't had the conversation with HR yet,was just wondering thoughts.

The chance of IR35 investigations was low when all HMRC could do was through a dart into the dartboard and without any evidence start investigating someone. Now there is a large list of people previously outside IR35 who have been deemed by their employer (yes that is the word I'm using) to be inside IR35. Now I have reasons to believe that ready to be run reports exist within HMRC systems to identify such people - others around here believe that isn't the case. However, HMRC don't have to rush to kick off these investigations now so its going to be well into 2018 before anyone knows if my concerns were valid or just me being overly negative .

As for being inside - the decision is now made by the client and you have already been paid as if inside - so the damage has already in part been done (if the report mentioned above exists, you are probably already on it). And to be blunt arguing after the fact isn't going to get you anywhere they have made their decision - probably based as much on advice from NHS Improvement as the tool and nothing is going to change their viewpoint....

[northernladuk]

It's a Hokey Cokey contract. If HMRC were looking for someone to look at surely an outside, inside, outside determination for the same continuous role would be worth a sniff.

OP. Were you aware of everything at the time and keeping on top of it or just kept working and let it sort itself?

[MonkeysUncle]

It's a Hokey Cokey contract. If HMRC were looking for someone to look at surely an outside, inside, outside determination for the same continuous role would be worth a sniff.

OP. Were you aware of everything at the time and keeping on top of it or just kept working and let it sort itself?

Sorry NorthernladUK...aware of what exactly? The changes in legislation?

[northernladuk]

Sorry NorthernladUK...aware of what exactly? The changes in legislation?

Yeah. Just seems a bit late in the day to be asking this sort of stuff but sounds like it's driven by your renewal.

[MonkeysUncle]

Yeah. Just seems a bit late in the day to be asking this sort of stuff but sounds like it's driven by your renewal.

It is.
I thought this the best time.
I understand your point thought about going outside, inside, outside throwing up some red flags.
I still think its worth a discussion. My trust was one of the 'lets put everyone inside straight away' trusts until they realized they cant do this and then it lets assess everyone but put as many inside as possible.

[northernladuk]

It is.
I thought this the best time.
I understand your point thought about going outside, inside, outside throwing up some red flags.
I still think its worth a discussion. My trust was one of the 'lets put everyone inside straight away' trusts until they realized they cant do this and then it lets assess everyone but put as many inside as possible.

Sadly we had that discussion 2 or 3 months ago.