Contributing to the contractor calculator campaign ... Contributing to the contractor calculator campaign ... - Page 2
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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    A test case to resolve this will take several years and at least £2m. Have you the funds to support that level of risk?
    ET and EAT costs are eminently affordable, especially if anyone has a modicum of common sense and presents the case themselves.

    What I'm saying is that if anyone who is deemed inside by the new regulations and is still with the same client after April 2020 and they wish to challenge that decision, then they can do so in the ET, and cannot lose. There are only three outcomes, employed, a worker or self employed, or possibly the client would settle out of court, as they did in the Winchester case. Any one would clearly challenge an inside IR35 decision. How could a client defend such a case when they had already declared that the contractor was a disguised employee, especially if they use CEST to make that determination.

    It would only take someone with nothing to lose to mount such a case, e.g someone who was about to retire, or leaving contracting for any other reason. However, if the case were handed to a high profile anti IR35 campaigner organisation, the way in which the case might be managed, might not be in the best interests of the contractor. I am talking from experience BTW.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
    ET and EAT costs are eminently affordable, especially if anyone has a modicum of common sense and presents the case themselves.

    What I'm saying is that if anyone who is deemed inside by the new regulations and is still with the same client after April 2020 and they wish to challenge that decision, then they can do so in the ET, and cannot lose. There are only three outcomes, employed, a worker or self employed, or possibly the client would settle out of court, as they did in the Winchester case. Any one would clearly challenge an inside IR35 decision. How could a client defend such a case when they had already declared that the contractor was a disguised employee, especially if they use CEST to make that determination.

    It would only take someone with nothing to lose to mount such a case, e.g someone who was about to retire, or leaving contracting for any other reason. However, if the case were handed to a high profile anti IR35 campaigner organisation, the way in which the case might be managed, might not be in the best interests of the contractor. I am talking from experience BTW.
    Wrong on several levels. ETs and EATs do not set case law precedents, only high court appeals do that. Without such a precedent, nothing will change. Secondly cases will settle rather than risk going to appeal - Winchester is a prime example of that - just to prevent clear precedents being created and so hampering HMRC's predations. All we end up with a series of small claims that will meander on for years and allow exploitation by agencies and vendors of interesting get-out-of-jail-free schemes..

    As for larger organisations, they are all trying to get clarity and common sense into a taxation system that totally fails to recognise the existence of working people who are not employees. How they achieve that, and whatever levers that use to achieve it, is actually not all that relevant.

    "I'm about to retire so let's take on a debilitating, all-involving seven year court case at my own expense". I don't think so...
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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    Wrong on several levels. ETs and EATs do not set case law precedents, only high court appeals do that. Without such a precedent, nothing will change. Secondly cases will settle rather than risk going to appeal - Winchester is a prime example of that - just to prevent clear precedents being created and so hampering HMRC's predations. All we end up with a series of small claims that will meander on for years and allow exploitation by agencies and vendors of interesting get-out-of-jail-free schemes..

    As for larger organisations, they are all trying to get clarity and common sense into a taxation system that totally fails to recognise the existence of working people who are not employees. How they achieve that, and whatever levers that use to achieve it, is actually not all that relevant.

    "I'm about to retire so let's take on a debilitating, all-involving seven year court case at my own expense". I don't think so...
    The EAT is the Employment Appeal Tribunal, i.e it is an appeal court and sets case law, which can be relied upon in other cases.

    edit

    ask yourself the question, when HMRC claims "we have case law in our favour for this issue" were all of these cases settled in the High Court? or were some settled in the Appeal Court, which is the same level as the EAT?
    Last edited by JohntheBike; 2nd May 2019 at 10:58.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
    The EAT is the Employment Appeal Tribunal, i.e it is an appeal court and sets case law, which can be relied upon in other cases.
    ...but it does not affect the primary law under which the case is being held, only rulings made under that law.

    We don't want to clarify when HMRC may be able to prosecute under IR35 or any other variant, we want IR35 out of the equation altogether for people who are genuinely independent workers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    ...but it does not affect the primary law under which the case is being held, only rulings made under that law.

    We don't want to clarify when HMRC may be able to prosecute under IR35 or any other variant, we want IR35 out of the equation altogether for people who are genuinely independent workers.
    Agreed, but HMRC are never going to allow any case to go to a high enough court which might risk a judgement against them. So the war will be reduced to "minor" skirmishes where individuals will have to pick the right time and circumstances to fight HMRC.

    In that respect, I think it is unlikely any campaign by organisations opposed to IR35 will necessarily help any individual in the fight against IR35. I may be wrong, but there still appears to me to be a groundswell of opinion opposed to using the ET/EAT to fight IR35. HMRC will continue to justify its approach, not only with regards to IR35, but also many other issues, e.g. the loan charge, where they can see a potential increase in tax take, which will be the case with the new IR35 rules.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
    . I may be wrong,
    That would be a first wouldn't it :
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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    That would be a first wouldn't it :
    it's just an opinion

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    BTW, informed opinion appears to be that an increased tax take from the 2020 changes are almost certainly a fantasy. If anything they will lose tax income by reducing people's spending power, offshoring work to save money ( ) and greater employment costs to clients leading to reduced CT income.
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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    BTW, informed opinion appears to be that an increased tax take from the 2020 changes are almost certainly a fantasy. If anything they will lose tax income by reducing people's spending power, offshoring work to save money ( ) and greater employment costs to clients leading to reduced CT income.
    yes, but it's like trying to quantify the savings from a redundancy campaign by a large organisation. The cost and savings of a redundancy campaign are readily calculable. What isn't calculable is any loss in company revenue due to poorer response to customer's requirements or market forces.

    It's the same here. An initial increase in tax take is clearly predictable, although the actual figures presented by HMRC are questionable , but the nett cost to HMG isn't. HMRC have already claimed an increase in tax take from the public sector, even prior to a complete taxation cycle. I guess they will claim that any perceived reduction in corporation tax take will be down to the reduction in the rate.

    Those who believe that reasoned argument will in any way affect HMRC's stance, are deluding themselves.

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