Private sector EDM

[wattaj]

this seems to be gathering pace. However, given that EDM's are rarely debated, is this EDM likely to have any effect?

No

Democracy, 'init? One doesn't have much right to complain if one does not take part.

Come on; the moral high-ground comes at the price of a stamp.

[malvolio]

agreed, and it's about time those that sit and sup tea and eat biscuits with HMRC realise this. HMRC can only be beaten in the courts.

So take them to court.

Easy to say it. Far harder if you're looking at £1m costs and seven years or so of appeals...

Organisations can't do it, they need a brave and determined person to get things started.

[JohntheBike]

Democracy, 'init? One doesn't have much right to complain if one does not take part.

Come on; the moral high-ground comes at the price of a stamp.

I have written to MP asking her to sign it.

[JohntheBike]

So take them to court.

Easy to say it. Far harder if you're looking at £1m costs and seven years or so of appeals...

Organisations can't do it, they need a brave and determined person to get things started.

"a brave and determined person to get things started"

I did this in 2000/2002 in my own way, but the majority opinion appeared to be against what I was doing. But given the very recent Elbourn case successfully used effectively the same strategy, there are those of us who are prepared to stand up and be counted. I'm keeping my powder dry for the moment.

£1m costs

My total costs 2000/2002 were about £8000. The initial ET case cost £1500 and the reminder to apply and mount an appeal in the EAT. Which paled into insignificance when compared with a potential £10000+ annual increase in taxes.

The approach must be to use the ET/EAT route and as long as HMRC are not the client, they will have no influence on the outcome. There is political gain to be made whichever way the ET judges. Which is exactly what I determined in 2000/2002. However, many seemed blind to this.

[JohntheBike]

IR35 OFF-PAYROLL TAX EXTENSION TO PRIVATE SECTOR - Early Day Motions

Encourage your MP to support the EDM.

Interesting to see that more than half who have signed up so far are Labour MP's.

[BrilloPad]

Interesting to see that more than half who have signed up so far are Labour MP's.

22 signatures so far.

Even if you get 622 signatures it will make no difference.

[JohntheBike]

22 signatures so far.

Even if you get 622 signatures it will make no difference.

granted, but given that IR35 was implemented by a Labour government, It's ironic that so far as many Labour MP's have signed it as all the other parties combined. I'm under no delusion that any "protests", petitions or "tea and biscuits" talks will alter the situation. The contracting community needs to take a hard line, but that's easier said than done. It will really take a few high profile clients, e.g. the BBC, to suffer a major reverse in court to even begin to alter the landscape.

[gnarledcontractor]

Why bother?

NTRT got nowhere. LCAG actually won a HoC vote but its meaningless.

The issue is that to defeat HMRC you have to defeat the treasury. To defeat the treasury you have to defeat the government.

The only way to fight HMRC is via the courts. They play very dirty and have endless amounts of money. And they play a very long game. Occasionally people do win against them.

About the only decent solution I have seen so far is QDOS are offering insurance against the new rules. Apart from that, contracting is dead.

Ok, you're a long standing contributor to this forum so worth listening to.. Contracting is dead? I know the IR35 rules are being extended but you appear to be very pessimistic. Do you think that all private sector engagers are going to follow HSBC and blanket all contractors? Or will the private sector react in a more creative way i.e discuss outside determinations on a case by case basis? My current situation is that I've engaged with my current client and the agency. I take with a pinch of salt that the agency (as they have said) will seek to preserve my outside status, but the client is willing to discuss and demonstrated a reasonable understanding of what the issues are. If, however, they do take a zero risk approach to the rule change then options are clearly to find another client, or use a reputable umbrella (like perhaps Contractor Umbrella) and take the hit as I still want the flexibility of contracting. I'd be interested in seeing you expand on the contracting is dead statement, is it because you think HMRC won't stop here and they will use further legislation in the future?

[JohntheBike]

Ok, you're a long standing contributor to this forum so worth listening to.. Contracting is dead? I know the IR35 rules are being extended but you appear to be very pessimistic. Do you think that all private sector engagers are going to follow HSBC and blanket all contractors? Or will the private sector react in a more creative way i.e discuss outside determinations on a case by case basis? My current situation is that I've engaged with my current client and the agency. I take with a pinch of salt that the agency (as they have said) will seek to preserve my outside status, but the client is willing to discuss and demonstrated a reasonable understanding of what the issues are. If, however, they do take a zero risk approach to the rule change then options are clearly to find another client, or use a reputable umbrella (like perhaps Contractor Umbrella) and take the hit as I still want the flexibility of contracting. I'd be interested in seeing you expand on the contracting is dead statement, is it because you think HMRC won't stop here and they will use further legislation in the future?

"Do you think that all private sector engagers are going to follow HSBC and blanket all contractors?"

anecdotal evidence from the public sector seems to indicate that HMRC bullying is having such an effect. Granted, not all private sector clients will be so intimidated, but given that many contractors are effectively BOS, and the clients know this and want this, then it is likely that HMRC bullying will prevail in the private sector.

"is it because you think HMRC won't stop here and they will use further legislation in the future?"

the history of IR35 and HMRC itself would seem to suggest this.

Individuals only get on in any organisation if they support an organisation's dogma. You rarely see a Trojan horse, i.e. someone who keeps their countenance until they are in such a position to change an organisation's dogma. It has been said many times that HMRC doesn't like self employed people because they cannot control that sector effectively. They would really like all workers to be PAYE, as legislation would then be easier to target and probably be more effective. Note the CIS scheme attacking the building sector which traditionally has been a cash orientated environment.

You can see further moves to a cashless society. Recently we were told that for the first time that electronic transactions exceeded cash transactions. Some time ago the legislation was repealed that allowed individuals the right to be paid in cash. This was one step towards the overall goal of HMRC to effectively eliminate cash from our society as much as possible, thus allowing greater ability to control the populace.

All this should demonstrate that we need to fight HMRC at every opportunity and make it difficult to implement their plans. But this approach seems to be lost on many in the contracting environment.

[BrilloPad]

My current situation is that I've engaged with my current client and the agency.

Hopefully some will take advantage of the QDOS insurance too?

All this should demonstrate that we need to fight HMRC at every opportunity and make it difficult to implement their plans. But this approach seems to be lost on many in the contracting environment.

Hear hear!