Collective bargaining

[JohntheBike]

The key decisions on IR35 have always been made by those ignorant of the rules. HMRC are ignorant of their own rules.

The power of lobbying in this area has always been massively oversold and the degree of continuity between administrations has been as remarkable as it has been unsurprising.

You’ll excuse my scepticism about your own motives, webberg. I expect they are mostly sound, and I am not trying to single you out for criticism, but you freely admit that you’re another one of the “hangers on” that makes a living from contractors, which is fine; you offer a service. But vested interests have always been part of the problem w/ IR35.

My view is that a minority will continue to operate outside IR35. A majority won’t, and contracting as a whole, including the “hangers on” will need to get used to that pretty soon.

"The power of lobbying in this area has always been massively oversold"

and I thought that I was the only one who believed this.

[webberg]

The key decisions on IR35 have always been made by those ignorant of the rules. HMRC are ignorant of their own rules.

The power of lobbying in this area has always been massively oversold and the degree of continuity between administrations has been as remarkable as it has been unsurprising.

You’ll excuse my scepticism about your own motives, webberg. I expect they are mostly sound, and I am not trying to single you out for criticism, but you freely admit that you’re another one of the “hangers on” that makes a living from contractors, which is fine; you offer a service. But vested interests have always been part of the problem w/ IR35.

My view is that a minority will continue to operate outside IR35. A majority won’t, and contracting as a whole, including the “hangers on” will need to get used to that pretty soon.

No problem with healthy scepticism in this space. I'd rather we acquire a client who has put us through the wringer and has realistic expectations than one who expects and wants to be led by the nose into whatever we deem is best.

IR35 is a series of tests. It is more about facts on the ground than technical/legal principles being applied to a theoretical situation. There is absolutely no reason why any contractor cannot teach themselves enough about it to make a judgement.

You are correct that us hangers on will be feeding from a smaller pond in a year or two and that forces us to either be the best at what we do or to come out with new structures to offer contractors. Unfortunately a lot of my "professional" colleagues will go for something that is perhaps barely adequate but simple to understand and sell and which they know is at best a short term fix. Contractors will always be driven by cost because they see us hangers on as a necessary evil.

This happened in 2000 and we saw it again in 2017 and we will see it again in 2020.

I'm suggesting that the contractors, united, can dictate minimum conditions on all intermediaries, us included, and that failing to do so will lead them into the same mess.

[JohntheBike]

No problem with healthy scepticism in this space. I'd rather we acquire a client who has put us through the wringer and has realistic expectations than one who expects and wants to be led by the nose into whatever we deem is best.

IR35 is a series of tests. It is more about facts on the ground than technical/legal principles being applied to a theoretical situation. There is absolutely no reason why any contractor cannot teach themselves enough about it to make a judgement.

You are correct that us hangers on will be feeding from a smaller pond in a year or two and that forces us to either be the best at what we do or to come out with new structures to offer contractors. Unfortunately a lot of my "professional" colleagues will go for something that is perhaps barely adequate but simple to understand and sell and which they know is at best a short term fix. Contractors will always be driven by cost because they see us hangers on as a necessary evil.

This happened in 2000 and we saw it again in 2017 and we will see it again in 2020.

I'm suggesting that the contractors, united, can dictate minimum conditions on all intermediaries, us included, and that failing to do so will lead them into the same mess.

"I'd rather we acquire a client who has put us through the wringer and has realistic expectations than one who expects and wants to be led by the nose into whatever we deem is best"

the problem is, how many of us are going to get the chance of discussing, let alone negotiating the issues with the client?

"I'm suggesting that the contractors, united, can dictate minimum conditions on all intermediaries, us included, and that failing to do so will lead them into the same mess"

The problem as I see it here is that the "principle" organisation which claims to represent the contracting community appears to be following a different path to that which many of its members believe it should be taking.

[webberg]

Interesting you are linking this to schemes.

Apart from that group I don't think a vast majority of contractors think we've been exploited by IR35.

I must admit I'm a little more optimistic than this. I'm aware a number of large recruiters and some big names using contractors in the Manchester area are putting time and effort in to this to get it right. I'm sure many smaller outfits won't but I'm thinking it's going to be a bit better than some think. We said the same about the PS but there are plenty of outside roles and even some of the inside ones are still attractive to local contractors.

Edit. And I also have to apologise as I also read the first post as sales patter and was wondering where it was heading.

I'd have to disagree on the first point. The schemes that started appearing in the early 2000s were there because they offered a simple "solution" to contractors being inside IR35. That was the driver and from there they developed into some sophisticated tax avoidance.

No issues with you seeing me try to sell something. I'm not. As I explained, we have no platforms suitable for this idea, a full client list and a programme of work ahead that is already keeping us occupied.

My reasons for kicking this off?

I have witnessed the distress - sometimes extreme distress - caused by schemes from the past and have been appalled by those who entered the market, sold rubbish, claimed to be able to defend it, faded away - usually far away. That is not how you treat people.

Sounds a bit trite and saccharine? Perhaps, but it's why we do this.

[webberg]

@webberg ... but you do sound awfully like Andy White in your first post. (I was at the inaugural meeting that led to the PCG).

I don't know him.

He was correct though and perhaps it is just his idea that needs a re-boot.

[webberg]

"I'd rather we acquire a client who has put us through the wringer and has realistic expectations than one who expects and wants to be led by the nose into whatever we deem is best"

the problem is, how many of us are going to get the chance of discussing, let alone negotiating the issues with the client?

"I'm suggesting that the contractors, united, can dictate minimum conditions on all intermediaries, us included, and that failing to do so will lead them into the same mess"

The problem as I see it here is that the "principle" organisation which claims to represent the contracting community appears to be following a different path to that which many of its members believe it should be taking.

The thread here and elsewhere has pretty much accepted the fact that post April 2020, the contracting population will fall. Those who remain in that role are likely to be niche specialists perhaps in new areas but who are able to command appropriate rates for their skill set.

I'm absolutely guessing here but I would say that the present contracting population will be less than half the size it is now by the end of 2021. (I do not count those using full PAYE umbrella schemes as contracting because for tax purposes, they are employees).

I am therefore saying that a concentrated cadre of highly skilled and in demand people have considerable influence at the end client and the intermediary and that combining their voices, exponentially increases that power.

I have no comment on the "principle" organisation. I've never really engaged with them as an adviser and my brushes with them in their very early days was as a member of a bank tax department which had an agenda I was following.

I would however encourage those who are members to be asking these questions.

[JohntheBike]

The thread here and elsewhere has pretty much accepted the fact that post April 2020, the contracting population will fall. Those who remain in that role are likely to be niche specialists perhaps in new areas but who are able to command appropriate rates for their skill set.

I'm absolutely guessing here but I would say that the present contracting population will be less than half the size it is now by the end of 2021. (I do not count those using full PAYE umbrella schemes as contracting because for tax purposes, they are employees).

I am therefore saying that a concentrated cadre of highly skilled and in demand people have considerable influence at the end client and the intermediary and that combining their voices, exponentially increases that power.

I have no comment on the "principle" organisation. I've never really engaged with them as an adviser and my brushes with them in their very early days was as a member of a bank tax department which had an agenda I was following.

I would however encourage those who are members to be asking these questions.

"Those who remain in that role are likely to be niche specialists perhaps in new areas but who are able to command appropriate rates for their skill set."

I would tend to agree. However, there are many such specialists, like me, who are engaged in support roles. It will remain to be seen how these are treated.

"I would however encourage those who are members to be asking these questions."

dissidents are routinely banned, and those who are not, are ignored.

[WordIsBond]

dissidents are routinely banned, and those who are not, are ignored.

Mate, if you think you got banned because you are a dissident, you didn't learn anything from it and you'd best get a really good helmet, because the ban hammer is sure to fall again.

Full disclosure: I'm not a mod and know nothing of discussions they had with you or about you, but I could see your ban coming a mile away, and I can't be the only one.

[SussexSeagull]

I am not quite as downbeat as other people. From what I can see a majority of public sector contracts are still outside IR35 so why should the private sector be any different?

[cojak]

Mate, if you think you got banned because you are a dissident, you didn't learn anything from it and you'd best get a really good helmet, because the ban hammer is sure to fall again.

Full disclosure: I'm not a mod and know nothing of discussions they had with you or about you, but I could see your ban coming a mile away, and I can't be the only one.

I think that JtB was talking about IPSE.

That’s how I’ll view it anyway for now.