Quote Originally Posted by webberg View Post
Them's bold statements.
To follow your logic, a self employed (sole trader presumably) is outside IR35 because there is no intermediary? They are self-employed because that is the client determination of the employment status. If the self-employed person uses a PSC that is their choice.
That is unfortunately not correct. A genuine sole trader, no intermediary, is NOT subject to client determination. Further, somebody who works for a PSC is not self employed. They are - for tax purposes - an employee or an office holder of the PSC - not self employed.
An employee (defined how?) is outside IR35 because they are an employee and there is no intermediary. They are an employee because that is the client determination of the employment status Again, I think this is not logical because being an employee for employment law purposes and although the end client has chosen to admit them to employment, it requires no IR35 determination.
A worker without an intermediary being present is perhaps one of the above. They are a worker because that is the client determination of the employment status But "worker" is not a recognised tax status and the end client cannot determine that they are something that the law does not define?
A worker with an intermediary present is what? Irrelevant as it's the employment status determined by the client. Lots of Agencies provide temp workers to big organisations who have worker rights. I disagree. I think this is very relevant. This is the heart of IR35. An agency may provide temp workers and they may have rights granted them by the end client, the agency, the law. Their tax status however is determined by IR35 and that means the end client is obliged to make a determination.
I get where you're coming from but the whole purpose of IR35 is to look at "workers" who use an intermediary to provide personal services. It obliges an end client (after April 2020) to decide whether - if that worker was subject to a hypothetical contract - they would be an employee.
It is tempting to do away with "employed, employee, self employed, etc" and use "worker". Indeed the Taylor Good Work Report did exactly that. However the Gov't for reasons of its own has retained now and beyond April 2020 a distinction between employed for employment and tax law and the dividing line is IR35.
Them's bold statements.
To follow your logic, a self employed (sole trader presumably) is outside IR35 because there is no intermediary? They are self-employed because that is the client determination of the employment status. If the self-employed person uses a PSC that is their choice.
That is unfortunately not correct. A genuine sole trader, no intermediary, is NOT subject to client determination. Further, somebody who works for a PSC is not self employed. They are - for tax purposes - an employee or an office holder of the PSC - not self employed.
An employee (defined how?) is outside IR35 because they are an employee and there is no intermediary. They are an employee because that is the client determination of the employment status Again, I think this is not logical because being an employee for employment law purposes and although the end client has chosen to admit them to employment, it requires no IR35 determination.
A worker without an intermediary being present is perhaps one of the above. They are a worker because that is the client determination of the employment status But "worker" is not a recognised tax status and the end client cannot determine that they are something that the law does not define?
A worker with an intermediary present is what? Irrelevant as it's the employment status determined by the client. Lots of Agencies provide temp workers to big organisations who have worker rights. I disagree. I think this is very relevant. This is the heart of IR35. An agency may provide temp workers and they may have rights granted them by the end client, the agency, the law. Their tax status however is determined by IR35 and that means the end client is obliged to make a determination.
I get where you're coming from but the whole purpose of IR35 is to look at "workers" who use an intermediary to provide personal services. It obliges an end client (after April 2020) to decide whether - if that worker was subject to a hypothetical contract - they would be an employee.
It is tempting to do away with "employed, employee, self employed, etc" and use "worker". Indeed the Taylor Good Work Report did exactly that. However the Gov't for reasons of its own has retained now and beyond April 2020 a distinction between employed for employment and tax law and the dividing line is IR35.
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