What do you honestly think will happen in 2020?

[KinooOrKinog]

My experience has always been in big banks.

I agree it would be hard to agree a substitute, but this would be due to reasonable reasons, I believe, not being enough to define someone as inside IR35 on its own.

I didn't say it was, but it's part of it.

On the other hand, it happens to me before having a 6 months contract and after 4 months the project was over and my contract was terminated! How this wouldn't clearly put me outside IR35!?

Hahah wtf?

Working practices are exactly the same as permies!? In which sense!? In my time there, never had to attend a team meeting, 1-2-1s, or any other permie calls/training/activities/bs...

In the banks I have worked with, it's often impossible to tell who is a contractor and who is permie. For example, they have their own desk in the office, their own parking space, they use the client's equipment, when they go on holiday they ask their 'line manager' to approve it, if they're sick they call it in, they're generally expected to work a set number of hours over a five day week, etc.

I'm not saying I haven't seen many contractors doing BAU and clearly doing permie work, but wouldn't say it was the majority, so not sure why you're generalising based on your probably very specific experience...

Yes, I'm basing it on my experience of the banks I have worked with (and other large corporates btw), along with what I know from other contractors who have worked with the banks I haven't.

[CryingSheep]

I didn't say it was, but it's part of it.

Hahah wtf?

In the banks I have worked with, it's often impossible to tell who is a contractor and who is permie. For example, they have their own desk in the office, their own parking space, they use the client's equipment, when they go on holiday they ask their 'line manager' to approve it, if they're sick they call it in, they're generally expected to work a set number of hours over a five day week, etc.

Yes, I'm basing it on my experience of the banks I have worked with (and other large corporates btw), along with what I know from other contractors who have worked with the banks I haven't.

When there is no more work a Permie still stick around or is moved to something else, if a contractor contract is terminated because there is no more work on the project that he was assigned to, how you don't get it this clearly separates a contractor from how a permie is treated!?

Own desks, where I've worked is very very rare (if not non existent). Usually we use hot desks or a few desks reserved for current project team that are usually shared by 2 or 3 contractors each (rotating with wfh). Parking space, is this a joke!? Maybe your 'big' banks were located in the middle of nowhere and there are more parking spaces than employees and in that case don't see why one cannot be used by a contractor! Everywhere I worked there wasn't enough parking for 99% of Permies, leave it alone for Contractors

Using client material happened to me 50/50 but again for reasonable security reasons.

Asking the PROJECT MANAGER to approve holidays, letting them know you're off sick or stick (more or less) to a core business timetable, any of those aren't reason enough to put someone inside, so I'm still struggling to understand your point!

[JohntheBike]

When there is no more work a Permie still stick around or is moved to something else, if a contractor contract is terminated because there is no more work on the project that he was assigned to, how you don't get it this clearly separates a contractor from how a permie is treated!?

Own desks, where I've worked is very very rare (if not non existent). Usually we use hot desks or a few desks reserved for current project team that are usually shared by 2 or 3 contractors each (rotating with wfh). Parking space, is this a joke!? Maybe your 'big' banks were located in the middle of nowhere and there are more parking spaces than employees and in that case don't see why one cannot be used by a contractor! Everywhere I worked there wasn't enough parking for 99% of Permies, leave it alone for Contractors

Using client material happened to me 50/50 but again for reasonable security reasons.

Asking the PROJECT MANAGER to approve holidays, letting them know you're off sick or stick (more or less) to a core business timetable, any of those aren't reason enough to put someone inside, so I'm still struggling to understand your point!

Asking the PROJECT MANAGER to approve holidays, letting them know you're off sick or stick (more or less) to a core business timetable, any of those aren't reason enough to put someone inside

We all know that a court of law, either the 1TT or the ET, should/would take into account all the aspects of an engagement and look at the overall picture before giving a judgement. However, HMRC always cherry pick the aspects of a engagement that supports their contentions. I would say that these aspects of "control" would be seized on by HMRC if they were trying to prove that a contract was subject to the IR35 rules.

[northernladuk]

We all know that a court of law, either the 1TT or the ET, should/would take into account all the aspects of an engagement and look at the overall picture before giving a judgement. However, HMRC always cherry pick the aspects of a engagement that supports their contentions. I would say that these aspects of "control" would be seized on by HMRC if they were trying to prove that a contract was subject to the IR35 rules.

And here we go again.....

[KinooOrKinog]

When there is no more work a Permie still stick around or is moved to something else, if a contractor contract is terminated because there is no more work on the project that he was assigned to, how you don't get it this clearly separates a contractor from how a permie is treated!?

Own desks, where I've worked is very very rare (if not non existent). Usually we use hot desks or a few desks reserved for current project team that are usually shared by 2 or 3 contractors each (rotating with wfh). Parking space, is this a joke!? Maybe your 'big' banks were located in the middle of nowhere and there are more parking spaces than employees and in that case don't see why one cannot be used by a contractor! Everywhere I worked there wasn't enough parking for 99% of Permies, leave it alone for Contractors

Using client material happened to me 50/50 but again for reasonable security reasons.

Asking the PROJECT MANAGER to approve holidays, letting them know you're off sick or stick (more or less) to a core business timetable, any of those aren't reason enough to put someone inside, so I'm still struggling to understand your point!

Right ok. My original point was that based on personal experience of working practices & that of other contractors I know, a large majority of contractors working with banks (& other large corporates) should be inside IR35.

I don't know why you're being so argumentative in terms of trying to defend your personal situation but know this; I. Don't. Care.

Don't @ me.

[BR14]

And here we go again.....

and again.

and again.

rinse and repeat.

[CryingSheep]

Right ok. My original point was that based on personal experience of working practices & that of other contractors I know, a large majority of contractors working with banks (& other large corporates) should be inside IR35.

I don't know why you're being so argumentative in terms of trying to defend your personal situation but know this; I. Don't. Care.

Don't @ me.

I'm not argumenting or generalising using my personal experience... you are!

I accept some contractors working for big banks will definitely be inside, but not the majority nor I can see a relation between being more likely to be inside because you're contracting with a big bank! That's all...

[JoJoGabor]

Going back to the original post, I reassure myself by thinking the amoun tof work is not going to change, so there will still be work available, whether thats outside/inside or perm still has to be seen. If all the contractors tie themselves into permanent work ther emay even be less competition for the temporary work (notice I didnt call it contracts)

[cojak]

Going back to the original post, I reassure myself by thinking the amoun tof work is not going to change, so there will still be work available, whether thats outside/inside or perm still has to be seen. If all the contractors tie themselves into permanent work ther emay even be less competition for the temporary work (notice I didnt call it contracts)

Yep, I'm loathe to call everyone contractors after April.

[JohntheBike]

Yep, I'm loathe to call everyone contractors after April.

what about freelance workers then?