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What do you honestly think will happen in 2020?

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    #41
    Originally posted by mogga71 View Post
    I personally reckon there will be so many contractors still declaring themselves outside after April that the HMRC won't bother looking into old gigs by newly declared inside iR35 contractors. I believe that they have said so much (well that's if we can ever believe them) regarding not investigating prior switchers.
    possibly, but when they've killed the outside determinations by bullying, then they'll turn to the historical situation for those declared inside. I'm just being my cynical distrustful self!

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      #42
      Originally posted by JohntheBike View Post
      possibly, but when they've killed the outside determinations by bullying, then they'll turn to the historical situation for those declared inside. I'm just being my cynical distrustful self!
      What if they go after historical contracts of someone declared inside (in an extension of one of those historical contracts) and HMRC loses!? Will that mean the new extension was wrongly deemed inside and the contractor is now due all the tax he was wrongly charged!?
      "The boy who cried Sheep"

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by CryingSheep View Post
        What if they go after historical contracts of someone declared inside (in an extension of one of those historical contracts) and HMRC loses!? Will that mean the new extension was wrongly deemed inside and the contractor is now due all the tax he was wrongly charged!?
        I cannot see a scenario in which this will ever happen. This is about increasing tax revenue, not ensuring the right taxes have been paid.

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by CryingSheep View Post
          What if they go after historical contracts of someone declared inside (in an extension of one of those historical contracts) and HMRC loses!? Will that mean the new extension was wrongly deemed inside and the contractor is now due all the tax he was wrongly charged!?
          a possible scenario, but HMRC will always back away from an issue if they think the risks to them are too great. I'm loath to mention it again, but they dropped their intended IR35 investigation of me, when I lost in the ET. This indicated to me that they considered me fair game for an IR35 investigation, and I must say that I probably would have lost in the FTT. They couldn't risk the FTT agreeing with the ET, i.e. I wasn't an employee, disguised or otherwise. And this is where I have always maintained that the ET is a very valid weapon against IR35, at least for individuals if not for the greater benefit.

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by JohntheBike View Post
            I'm loath to mention it again, but, blah blah blah.
            aye, - right.

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by ShandyDrinker View Post
              I cannot see a scenario in which this will ever happen. This is about increasing tax revenue, not ensuring the right taxes have been paid.
              agreed

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by BR14 View Post
                aye, - right.
                it's easy to predict who will respond!

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by JohntheBike View Post
                  This latest loss by BBC presenters will embolden HMRC and we will see a much greater campaign of attacking IT contractors, whether declared inside or out. Those declared outside will be the first target and those declared inside will be subject to historical investigations in due course.
                  I'm afraid that the above is inaccurate and is not how HMRC works and is likely to cause panic.

                  Some time ago a decision was taken in HMRC on two key issues.

                  One was that IR35 was "not working" and needed to be changed and that after due consideration, altering the decision maker was the best option to increase compliance. This was tried out in the public sector, called a success (due to manipulated statistics) and importantly produced a flow of additional revenue that the political masters of HMRC could not ignore. Having demonstrated the effectiveness of the reform, extending to the private sector was a given and part of the long term strategy.

                  I would say that this decision was made in late 2015, perhaps mid 2016.

                  Alongside this, pour encourager les autres, the entertainment sector was targeted in a campaign to challenge IR35 status. this follows a pattern seen and repeated many times over the years. Pick on celebrities and show the ordinary man/woman that nobody is safe. HMRC knew that the BBC had changed the status of many front of camera people and that many other companies in that area would follow the lead of the BBC. Further, the facts of many BBC front of camera talent lend themselves to an inside IR35 decision because the BBC programmes are largely formulaic and input from individuals has limited effect.

                  From mid next year therefore, HMRC has its reform of IR35, the "success" of that reform = political backing, a number of cases which demonstrate the range of IR35, a range of data to allow them to better target problem areas, a number of end clients who are risk averse. In short, they have set up an environment in which individuals will find it much harder to resist an IR35 status enquiry and where far fewer individuals will be deemed "outside".

                  This is a plan that I would say has been 4+ years in the making and which is now bearing fruit.

                  One "victory" (on a casting vote and which will be appealed) is not a catalyst for a sudden increase in activity.

                  If that were the case, then one defeat would have the capacity to bring the whole thing down.

                  No. This is a long campaign to drive contractors in deemed employment to the "correct" place.

                  It will accelerate, but not because of one case.

                  Everybody out there needs to be taking a longer term of their position.

                  They need to consider the past, the present and the future.

                  Only those with some seriously debatable roles in the past need to be concerned. HMRC has not the resource or the need to chase historic enquiries.

                  The present is largely taken care of by the reforms in IR35 and risk appetite in end clients.

                  The future - we'll see.

                  If I were a contractor (and see rider below) I would be looking to be collecting evidence of past roles to prepare for an enquiry in the hope it never happens, speaking with my end client about the present (by which I mean first contract in the new rules) and into the future, seeking to be compliant, under the radar and cautious. Only when the dust settles would I be looking to go back to contracting outside IR35. By that I mean perhaps late 2021.

                  Rider: Bear in mind that I am an adviser who has a business which deals with historic enquiries but also future arrangements for our clients. I have sought to be objective above but some bias may be present.
                  Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

                  (No, me neither).

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Originally posted by webberg View Post
                    Only those with some seriously debatable roles in the past need to be concerned. HMRC has not the resource or the need to chase historic enquiries.
                    To contradict this point may I refer you to the Glaxo letters. I suspect HMRC may willingly open up a lot of such campaigns, knowing that a lot of people will just en up paying due to lack of knowledge regarding options.
                    Last edited by eek; 20 September 2019, 11:12.
                    merely at clientco for the entertainment

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Originally posted by webberg View Post
                      I'm afraid that the above is inaccurate and is not how HMRC works and is likely to cause panic.

                      Some time ago a decision was taken in HMRC on two key issues.

                      One was that IR35 was "not working" and needed to be changed and that after due consideration, altering the decision maker was the best option to increase compliance. This was tried out in the public sector, called a success (due to manipulated statistics) and importantly produced a flow of additional revenue that the political masters of HMRC could not ignore. Having demonstrated the effectiveness of the reform, extending to the private sector was a given and part of the long term strategy.

                      I would say that this decision was made in late 2015, perhaps mid 2016.

                      Alongside this, pour encourager les autres, the entertainment sector was targeted in a campaign to challenge IR35 status. this follows a pattern seen and repeated many times over the years. Pick on celebrities and show the ordinary man/woman that nobody is safe. HMRC knew that the BBC had changed the status of many front of camera people and that many other companies in that area would follow the lead of the BBC. Further, the facts of many BBC front of camera talent lend themselves to an inside IR35 decision because the BBC programmes are largely formulaic and input from individuals has limited effect.

                      From mid next year therefore, HMRC has its reform of IR35, the "success" of that reform = political backing, a number of cases which demonstrate the range of IR35, a range of data to allow them to better target problem areas, a number of end clients who are risk averse. In short, they have set up an environment in which individuals will find it much harder to resist an IR35 status enquiry and where far fewer individuals will be deemed "outside".

                      This is a plan that I would say has been 4+ years in the making and which is now bearing fruit.

                      One "victory" (on a casting vote and which will be appealed) is not a catalyst for a sudden increase in activity.

                      If that were the case, then one defeat would have the capacity to bring the whole thing down.

                      No. This is a long campaign to drive contractors in deemed employment to the "correct" place.

                      It will accelerate, but not because of one case.

                      Everybody out there needs to be taking a longer term of their position.

                      They need to consider the past, the present and the future.

                      Only those with some seriously debatable roles in the past need to be concerned. HMRC has not the resource or the need to chase historic enquiries.

                      The present is largely taken care of by the reforms in IR35 and risk appetite in end clients.

                      The future - we'll see.

                      If I were a contractor (and see rider below) I would be looking to be collecting evidence of past roles to prepare for an enquiry in the hope it never happens, speaking with my end client about the present (by which I mean first contract in the new rules) and into the future, seeking to be compliant, under the radar and cautious. Only when the dust settles would I be looking to go back to contracting outside IR35. By that I mean perhaps late 2021.

                      Rider: Bear in mind that I am an adviser who has a business which deals with historic enquiries but also future arrangements for our clients. I have sought to be objective above but some bias may be present.
                      I'm afraid that the above is inaccurate and is not how HMRC works and is likely to cause panic.
                      if you refer to the original title of this thread, you will see that I'm only giving my opinion, and I'm not scaremongering. As another poster has already said, you have only to look at the Glaxo situation to see what dirty, and perhaps illegal, tricks that HMRC are getting up to. You deny that they employ dirty tricks at your peril.

                      Clearly anyone who could remotely be classed as "part of the establishment" or has a vested interest in the issues, would not tend to challenge HMRC's position. However, that's not to say that individuals wont.



                      [/QUOTE]

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