Originally posted by mogga71
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What do you honestly think will happen in 2020?
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Originally posted by JohntheBike View Postpossibly, but when they've killed the outside determinations by bullying, then they'll turn to the historical situation for those declared inside. I'm just being my cynical distrustful self!"The boy who cried Sheep"Comment
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Originally posted by CryingSheep View PostWhat if they go after historical contracts of someone declared inside (in an extension of one of those historical contracts) and HMRC loses!? Will that mean the new extension was wrongly deemed inside and the contractor is now due all the tax he was wrongly charged!?Comment
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Originally posted by CryingSheep View PostWhat if they go after historical contracts of someone declared inside (in an extension of one of those historical contracts) and HMRC loses!? Will that mean the new extension was wrongly deemed inside and the contractor is now due all the tax he was wrongly charged!?Comment
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Originally posted by JohntheBike View PostI'm loath to mention it again, but, blah blah blah.Comment
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Originally posted by ShandyDrinker View PostI cannot see a scenario in which this will ever happen. This is about increasing tax revenue, not ensuring the right taxes have been paid.Comment
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Originally posted by JohntheBike View PostThis latest loss by BBC presenters will embolden HMRC and we will see a much greater campaign of attacking IT contractors, whether declared inside or out. Those declared outside will be the first target and those declared inside will be subject to historical investigations in due course.
Some time ago a decision was taken in HMRC on two key issues.
One was that IR35 was "not working" and needed to be changed and that after due consideration, altering the decision maker was the best option to increase compliance. This was tried out in the public sector, called a success (due to manipulated statistics) and importantly produced a flow of additional revenue that the political masters of HMRC could not ignore. Having demonstrated the effectiveness of the reform, extending to the private sector was a given and part of the long term strategy.
I would say that this decision was made in late 2015, perhaps mid 2016.
Alongside this, pour encourager les autres, the entertainment sector was targeted in a campaign to challenge IR35 status. this follows a pattern seen and repeated many times over the years. Pick on celebrities and show the ordinary man/woman that nobody is safe. HMRC knew that the BBC had changed the status of many front of camera people and that many other companies in that area would follow the lead of the BBC. Further, the facts of many BBC front of camera talent lend themselves to an inside IR35 decision because the BBC programmes are largely formulaic and input from individuals has limited effect.
From mid next year therefore, HMRC has its reform of IR35, the "success" of that reform = political backing, a number of cases which demonstrate the range of IR35, a range of data to allow them to better target problem areas, a number of end clients who are risk averse. In short, they have set up an environment in which individuals will find it much harder to resist an IR35 status enquiry and where far fewer individuals will be deemed "outside".
This is a plan that I would say has been 4+ years in the making and which is now bearing fruit.
One "victory" (on a casting vote and which will be appealed) is not a catalyst for a sudden increase in activity.
If that were the case, then one defeat would have the capacity to bring the whole thing down.
No. This is a long campaign to drive contractors in deemed employment to the "correct" place.
It will accelerate, but not because of one case.
Everybody out there needs to be taking a longer term of their position.
They need to consider the past, the present and the future.
Only those with some seriously debatable roles in the past need to be concerned. HMRC has not the resource or the need to chase historic enquiries.
The present is largely taken care of by the reforms in IR35 and risk appetite in end clients.
The future - we'll see.
If I were a contractor (and see rider below) I would be looking to be collecting evidence of past roles to prepare for an enquiry in the hope it never happens, speaking with my end client about the present (by which I mean first contract in the new rules) and into the future, seeking to be compliant, under the radar and cautious. Only when the dust settles would I be looking to go back to contracting outside IR35. By that I mean perhaps late 2021.
Rider: Bear in mind that I am an adviser who has a business which deals with historic enquiries but also future arrangements for our clients. I have sought to be objective above but some bias may be present.Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.
(No, me neither).Comment
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Originally posted by webberg View PostOnly those with some seriously debatable roles in the past need to be concerned. HMRC has not the resource or the need to chase historic enquiries.Last edited by eek; 20 September 2019, 11:12.merely at clientco for the entertainmentComment
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Originally posted by webberg View PostI'm afraid that the above is inaccurate and is not how HMRC works and is likely to cause panic.
Some time ago a decision was taken in HMRC on two key issues.
One was that IR35 was "not working" and needed to be changed and that after due consideration, altering the decision maker was the best option to increase compliance. This was tried out in the public sector, called a success (due to manipulated statistics) and importantly produced a flow of additional revenue that the political masters of HMRC could not ignore. Having demonstrated the effectiveness of the reform, extending to the private sector was a given and part of the long term strategy.
I would say that this decision was made in late 2015, perhaps mid 2016.
Alongside this, pour encourager les autres, the entertainment sector was targeted in a campaign to challenge IR35 status. this follows a pattern seen and repeated many times over the years. Pick on celebrities and show the ordinary man/woman that nobody is safe. HMRC knew that the BBC had changed the status of many front of camera people and that many other companies in that area would follow the lead of the BBC. Further, the facts of many BBC front of camera talent lend themselves to an inside IR35 decision because the BBC programmes are largely formulaic and input from individuals has limited effect.
From mid next year therefore, HMRC has its reform of IR35, the "success" of that reform = political backing, a number of cases which demonstrate the range of IR35, a range of data to allow them to better target problem areas, a number of end clients who are risk averse. In short, they have set up an environment in which individuals will find it much harder to resist an IR35 status enquiry and where far fewer individuals will be deemed "outside".
This is a plan that I would say has been 4+ years in the making and which is now bearing fruit.
One "victory" (on a casting vote and which will be appealed) is not a catalyst for a sudden increase in activity.
If that were the case, then one defeat would have the capacity to bring the whole thing down.
No. This is a long campaign to drive contractors in deemed employment to the "correct" place.
It will accelerate, but not because of one case.
Everybody out there needs to be taking a longer term of their position.
They need to consider the past, the present and the future.
Only those with some seriously debatable roles in the past need to be concerned. HMRC has not the resource or the need to chase historic enquiries.
The present is largely taken care of by the reforms in IR35 and risk appetite in end clients.
The future - we'll see.
If I were a contractor (and see rider below) I would be looking to be collecting evidence of past roles to prepare for an enquiry in the hope it never happens, speaking with my end client about the present (by which I mean first contract in the new rules) and into the future, seeking to be compliant, under the radar and cautious. Only when the dust settles would I be looking to go back to contracting outside IR35. By that I mean perhaps late 2021.
Rider: Bear in mind that I am an adviser who has a business which deals with historic enquiries but also future arrangements for our clients. I have sought to be objective above but some bias may be present.I'm afraid that the above is inaccurate and is not how HMRC works and is likely to cause panic.
Clearly anyone who could remotely be classed as "part of the establishment" or has a vested interest in the issues, would not tend to challenge HMRC's position. However, that's not to say that individuals wont.
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