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Public sector blanket IR35 inside

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    #11
    Originally posted by imoutahere View Post
    I've heard since my original post that people have already gone in different areas of the same department. The reason I said apparently is because that is what we were told and the evidence this last week points to it happening. Some areas are challenging the results still, but suspect they won't want inconsistencies to be seen to be happening.

    I've run the cest tool and the IR35 shield tool, and both say I'm out (with or without substitution questions), so we'll see what happens.

    I've also heard of people in multiple different roles that have gone, not just a single role.
    Yes I've heard the same, it's chaos tbh. The vast majority of projects will stop and nothing will be delivered. Ridiculous.

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      #12
      Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
      Well i went in to the details because JtB thinks this is what I said wouldn't happen and it isn't really but I've opened a can of worms.

      The devil is in the details. All inside because CEST says so is very different to a blanket determination because they fancied it. There is no 'effectively' or 'necessarily'. I see what you mean about how it looks but the distinction is important. The first HMRC said they'd stand by, the second is discouraged (illegal?) by the legislation. Maybe same end to the layman but very different when looking at the detail, which will have different ramifications in the future if blankets are banned/fined. See what I mean?

      And no. Running one CEST and putting everyone inside is wholly wrong. It should be run against a role. Yes if you have 20 PM's you run it against the PM role and all 20 PM's are inside but the CEST output from a PM could be completely different to someone on 1st Line Helpdesk or an App Support guy running shifts etc. The CEST will not be accurate which opens a whole can of other worms. OK OK they could run it against 20 roles and they all come inside, fair enough, at least they've then fulfilled their obligations as per the legislation.

      Looking at the number of people I'm arguing with it must just be me that's pretty frustrated at clients that respond with 'your are all via brolly' without any thought for the legislation. It's bad enough it's hit, but it's compounded by clients trying to dodge their responsibilities making life even harder for the contractor. Am I missing something which is making only me frustrated?
      Any client running a 'your all outside' needs challenging. I'd hope IPSE would step up and take this on as it's against the legislation and its wrong. It's also counter productive for the client as well to be fair.
      I welcome your more expansive argument, but I'm afraid you place too much faith in IPSE. It's clear in the minds of many ex IPSE members here, myself included, that IPSE has little or no influence on the situation, and is following an agenda which isn't necessarily to the benefit of the contracting community in general.

      However, whatever label you put on it, if one role is assessed using CEST and the result is applied to everyone engaged in that role, then would that constitute abiding by the law? I can't answer that question, and only some form of legal test case could I'd say.

      Comment


        #13
        It appears the issue with role based assesments is already out there.

        Unlawful Network Rail blanket approach finds 99% of workers inside IR35, reveals FOI
        'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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          #14
          Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
          The poster says CEST is being used but then says 'essentially' a blanket determination. He's contradicted himself really so not much to take from it until more details come to light.
          I think I work at the same place as the poster and he is correct in what he is saying.

          They are using the CEST but it is being manipulated to give an inside IR35 verdict (imo).

          Comment


            #15
            Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
            Well i went in to the details because JtB thinks this is what I said wouldn't happen and it isn't really but I've opened a can of worms.

            The devil is in the details. All inside because CEST says so is very different to a blanket determination because they fancied it. There is no 'effectively' or 'necessarily'. I see what you mean about how it looks but the distinction is important. The first HMRC said they'd stand by, the second is discouraged (illegal?) by the legislation. Maybe same end to the layman but very different when looking at the detail, which will have different ramifications in the future if blankets are banned/fined. See what I mean?

            And no. Running one CEST and putting everyone inside is wholly wrong. It should be run against a role. Yes if you have 20 PM's you run it against the PM role and all 20 PM's are inside but the CEST output from a PM could be completely different to someone on 1st Line Helpdesk or an App Support guy running shifts etc. The CEST will not be accurate which opens a whole can of other worms. OK OK they could run it against 20 roles and they all come inside, fair enough, at least they've then fulfilled their obligations as per the legislation.

            Looking at the number of people I'm arguing with it must just be me that's pretty frustrated at clients that respond with 'your are all via brolly' without any thought for the legislation. It's bad enough it's hit, but it's compounded by clients trying to dodge their responsibilities making life even harder for the contractor. Am I missing something which is making only me frustrated?
            Any client running a 'your all outside' needs challenging. I'd hope IPSE would step up and take this on as it's against the legislation and its wrong. It's also counter productive for the client as well to be fair.
            IPSE have been nothing short of piss poor in all of this tbh.

            Comment


              #16
              Originally posted by boxingbantz View Post
              IPSE have been nothing short of piss poor in all of this tbh.
              which I guess is an opinion that many would agree with

              Comment


                #17
                Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
                It appears the issue with role based assesments is already out there.

                Unlawful Network Rail blanket approach finds 99% of workers inside IR35, reveals FOI
                yes, but the question is, does this approach demonstrate reasonable care? I guess only a court case could answer that.

                Comment


                  #18
                  Originally posted by boxingbantz View Post
                  I think I work at the same place as the poster and he is correct in what he is saying.

                  They are using the CEST but it is being manipulated to give an inside IR35 verdict (imo).
                  Not sure CEST would have to be 'manipulated' to offer an Inside verdict. That's its defacto response.

                  Indeed the opposite would be plausible, manipulation to offer an Outside verdict - if anything.

                  Comment


                    #19
                    Originally posted by boxingbantz View Post
                    I think I work at the same place as the poster and he is correct in what he is saying.

                    They are using the CEST but it is being manipulated to give an inside IR35 verdict (imo).
                    Yes and i think HMRC are putting the frighteners on people, so they have no choice. There is a lot of very high profile projects that could/will go belly up....

                    Comment


                      #20
                      Originally posted by JohntheBike View Post
                      I welcome your more expansive argument, but I'm afraid you place too much faith in IPSE. It's clear in the minds of many ex IPSE members here, myself included, that IPSE has little or no influence on the situation, and is following an agenda which isn't necessarily to the benefit of the contracting community in general.
                      What agenda is that then?

                      Comment

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