Originally posted by imoutahere
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Public sector blanket IR35 inside
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostWell i went in to the details because JtB thinks this is what I said wouldn't happen and it isn't really but I've opened a can of worms.
The devil is in the details. All inside because CEST says so is very different to a blanket determination because they fancied it. There is no 'effectively' or 'necessarily'. I see what you mean about how it looks but the distinction is important. The first HMRC said they'd stand by, the second is discouraged (illegal?) by the legislation. Maybe same end to the layman but very different when looking at the detail, which will have different ramifications in the future if blankets are banned/fined. See what I mean?
And no. Running one CEST and putting everyone inside is wholly wrong. It should be run against a role. Yes if you have 20 PM's you run it against the PM role and all 20 PM's are inside but the CEST output from a PM could be completely different to someone on 1st Line Helpdesk or an App Support guy running shifts etc. The CEST will not be accurate which opens a whole can of other worms. OK OK they could run it against 20 roles and they all come inside, fair enough, at least they've then fulfilled their obligations as per the legislation.
Looking at the number of people I'm arguing with it must just be me that's pretty frustrated at clients that respond with 'your are all via brolly' without any thought for the legislation. It's bad enough it's hit, but it's compounded by clients trying to dodge their responsibilities making life even harder for the contractor. Am I missing something which is making only me frustrated?
Any client running a 'your all outside' needs challenging. I'd hope IPSE would step up and take this on as it's against the legislation and its wrong. It's also counter productive for the client as well to be fair.
However, whatever label you put on it, if one role is assessed using CEST and the result is applied to everyone engaged in that role, then would that constitute abiding by the law? I can't answer that question, and only some form of legal test case could I'd say.Comment
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It appears the issue with role based assesments is already out there.
Unlawful Network Rail blanket approach finds 99% of workers inside IR35, reveals FOI'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!Comment
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostThe poster says CEST is being used but then says 'essentially' a blanket determination. He's contradicted himself really so not much to take from it until more details come to light.
They are using the CEST but it is being manipulated to give an inside IR35 verdict (imo).Comment
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostWell i went in to the details because JtB thinks this is what I said wouldn't happen and it isn't really but I've opened a can of worms.
The devil is in the details. All inside because CEST says so is very different to a blanket determination because they fancied it. There is no 'effectively' or 'necessarily'. I see what you mean about how it looks but the distinction is important. The first HMRC said they'd stand by, the second is discouraged (illegal?) by the legislation. Maybe same end to the layman but very different when looking at the detail, which will have different ramifications in the future if blankets are banned/fined. See what I mean?
And no. Running one CEST and putting everyone inside is wholly wrong. It should be run against a role. Yes if you have 20 PM's you run it against the PM role and all 20 PM's are inside but the CEST output from a PM could be completely different to someone on 1st Line Helpdesk or an App Support guy running shifts etc. The CEST will not be accurate which opens a whole can of other worms. OK OK they could run it against 20 roles and they all come inside, fair enough, at least they've then fulfilled their obligations as per the legislation.
Looking at the number of people I'm arguing with it must just be me that's pretty frustrated at clients that respond with 'your are all via brolly' without any thought for the legislation. It's bad enough it's hit, but it's compounded by clients trying to dodge their responsibilities making life even harder for the contractor. Am I missing something which is making only me frustrated?
Any client running a 'your all outside' needs challenging. I'd hope IPSE would step up and take this on as it's against the legislation and its wrong. It's also counter productive for the client as well to be fair.Comment
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Originally posted by boxingbantz View PostIPSE have been nothing short of piss poor in all of this tbh.Comment
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostIt appears the issue with role based assesments is already out there.
Unlawful Network Rail blanket approach finds 99% of workers inside IR35, reveals FOIComment
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Originally posted by boxingbantz View PostI think I work at the same place as the poster and he is correct in what he is saying.
They are using the CEST but it is being manipulated to give an inside IR35 verdict (imo).
Indeed the opposite would be plausible, manipulation to offer an Outside verdict - if anything.Comment
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Originally posted by boxingbantz View PostI think I work at the same place as the poster and he is correct in what he is saying.
They are using the CEST but it is being manipulated to give an inside IR35 verdict (imo).Comment
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Originally posted by JohntheBike View PostI welcome your more expansive argument, but I'm afraid you place too much faith in IPSE. It's clear in the minds of many ex IPSE members here, myself included, that IPSE has little or no influence on the situation, and is following an agenda which isn't necessarily to the benefit of the contracting community in general.Comment
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