Public sector blanket IR35 inside Public sector blanket IR35 inside
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  1. #1

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    Default Public sector blanket IR35 inside

    Had a meeting yesterday in a large public sector org and they're basically blanket insiding contracts (whereas previously, most were outside). We were told that CEST was being used but although the tool is going to be modified (but hadn't been yet), they were using new guidance (which they weren't allowed to share). Apparently this will be the case for all other goverment departments. Also, role owners (which could be a delivery manager for instance) were making the determination and 'would have to stand up in court if this was challenged'. So HMRC are really putting the frightners on staff - understandably, no-one is confident that correct determination will apply. Will be interesting to see what happens to some of the many projects where the majority of technical staff are contractors because they haven't been able to fill the permie roles (for years).

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    Quote Originally Posted by imoutahere View Post
    Had a meeting yesterday in a large public sector org and they're basically blanket insiding contracts (whereas previously, most were outside). We were told that CEST was being used but although the tool is going to be modified (but hadn't been yet), they were using new guidance (which they weren't allowed to share). Apparently this will be the case for all other goverment departments. Also, role owners (which could be a delivery manager for instance) were making the determination and 'would have to stand up in court if this was challenged'. So HMRC are really putting the frightners on staff - understandably, no-one is confident that correct determination will apply. Will be interesting to see what happens to some of the many projects where the majority of technical staff are contractors because they haven't been able to fill the permie roles (for years).
    All other departments apart from the BOE, MOD and HMRC I’ll wager...

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by imoutahere View Post
    Had a meeting yesterday in a large public sector org and they're basically blanket insiding contracts (whereas previously, most were outside). We were told that CEST was being used but although the tool is going to be modified (but hadn't been yet), they were using new guidance (which they weren't allowed to share). Apparently this will be the case for all other goverment departments. Also, role owners (which could be a delivery manager for instance) were making the determination and 'would have to stand up in court if this was challenged'. So HMRC are really putting the frightners on staff - understandably, no-one is confident that correct determination will apply. Will be interesting to see what happens to some of the many projects where the majority of technical staff are contractors because they haven't been able to fill the permie roles (for years).
    one for NLUK to take note of

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
    one for NLUK to take note of
    Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    Why?
    because you claim it's not happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
    because you claim it's not happening.
    The poster says CEST is being used but then says 'essentially' a blanket determination. He's contradicted himself really so not much to take from it until more details come to light.
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    It's surely possible to run CEST once and apply the result to many so I don't see why that's necessarily a contradiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidot View Post
    It's surely possible to run CEST once and apply the result to many so I don't see why that's necessarily a contradiction.
    Well i went in to the details because JtB thinks this is what I said wouldn't happen and it isn't really but I've opened a can of worms.

    The devil is in the details. All inside because CEST says so is very different to a blanket determination because they fancied it. There is no 'effectively' or 'necessarily'. I see what you mean about how it looks but the distinction is important. The first HMRC said they'd stand by, the second is discouraged (illegal?) by the legislation. Maybe same end to the layman but very different when looking at the detail, which will have different ramifications in the future if blankets are banned/fined. See what I mean?

    And no. Running one CEST and putting everyone inside is wholly wrong. It should be run against a role. Yes if you have 20 PM's you run it against the PM role and all 20 PM's are inside but the CEST output from a PM could be completely different to someone on 1st Line Helpdesk or an App Support guy running shifts etc. The CEST will not be accurate which opens a whole can of other worms. OK OK they could run it against 20 roles and they all come inside, fair enough, at least they've then fulfilled their obligations as per the legislation.

    Looking at the number of people I'm arguing with it must just be me that's pretty frustrated at clients that respond with 'your are all via brolly' without any thought for the legislation. It's bad enough it's hit, but it's compounded by clients trying to dodge their responsibilities making life even harder for the contractor. Am I missing something which is making only me frustrated?
    Any client running a 'your all outside' needs challenging. I'd hope IPSE would step up and take this on as it's against the legislation and its wrong. It's also counter productive for the client as well to be fair.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by imoutahere View Post
    Had a meeting yesterday in a large public sector org and they're basically blanket insiding contracts (whereas previously, most were outside). We were told that CEST was being used but although the tool is going to be modified (but hadn't been yet), they were using new guidance (which they weren't allowed to share). Apparently this will be the case for all other goverment departments. Also, role owners (which could be a delivery manager for instance) were making the determination and 'would have to stand up in court if this was challenged'. So HMRC are really putting the frightners on staff - understandably, no-one is confident that correct determination will apply. Will be interesting to see what happens to some of the many projects where the majority of technical staff are contractors because they haven't been able to fill the permie roles (for years).
    This is correct, more or less, I'm in one of those departments and am affected by it. A whole host of contractors have either walked or been pushed so i'm hearing. I did the CEST tool, with the person who signs my timesheets and arranges extensions and it was ignored, even though it said I was outside. HMRC have been speaking to people face to face, to ensure they can't fudge anything.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by woboogie View Post
    This is correct, more or less, I'm in one of those departments and am affected by it. A whole host of contractors have either walked or been pushed so i'm hearing. I did the CEST tool, with the person who signs my timesheets and arranges extensions and it was ignored, even though it said I was outside. HMRC have been speaking to people face to face, to ensure they can't fudge anything.
    I've heard since my original post that people have already gone in different areas of the same department. The reason I said apparently is because that is what we were told and the evidence this last week points to it happening. Some areas are challenging the results still, but suspect they won't want inconsistencies to be seen to be happening.

    I've run the cest tool and the IR35 shield tool, and both say I'm out (with or without substitution questions), so we'll see what happens.

    I've also heard of people in multiple different roles that have gone, not just a single role.
    Last edited by imoutahere; 21st September 2019 at 11:00.

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