Fighting HMRC and IR35 Fighting HMRC and IR35 - Page 2
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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    Looks like JTB might actually have some to listen to him. Oh the hours they could spend chatting about their experiences at the ET and FTT over a good glass of port.
    a good glass of port
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
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    that figures
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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostofTarbera View Post
    Phone up ipse to see if they will fund the case - hint you don’t need to be a member of ipse for them to fund a good case if it benefits the collective

    Let us know if the say No and I’ll put in £100 quid


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    According to the list of donors, ipse have put in £500 towards the appeal.
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  4. #14

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    Am sure I have seen this elsewhere so I am not inferring ownership of this thought, but it does look like a possible 'Outside IR35' way through all this is if end clients all become aware of and have available to them;

    1. Qdos approved contracts that can be stored locally with client and agent and, subsequent to this;
    2. The offer of an insurance package that, in case of later HMRC investigations of 'outside' contracts, and upon proof of Qdos approvals, will cover all losses.

    Thoughts? Workable? Utterly stupid and too much to hope for?

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by simes View Post
    Am sure I have seen this elsewhere so I am not inferring ownership of this thought, but it does look like a possible 'Outside IR35' way through all this is if end clients all become aware of and have available to them;

    1. Qdos approved contracts that can be stored locally with client and agent and, subsequent to this;
    2. The offer of an insurance package that, in case of later HMRC investigations of 'outside' contracts, and upon proof of Qdos approvals, will cover all losses.

    Thoughts? Workable? Utterly stupid and too much to hope for?
    Why "QDOS" approved contracts vs any other of a dozen or so similar ones? And approved by whom? HMRC won't take any notice of IPSE, FSB and the IoD, much less commercial operations

    The real answer is to use a B2B contract for a set deliverable and, most importantly, ensure you client agrees that you are actually there to do just that and nothing else. Otherwise, their safe solution is to put you inside IR35.
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    Why "QDOS" approved contracts vs any other of a dozen or so similar ones? And approved by whom? HMRC won't take any notice of IPSE, FSB and the IoD, much less commercial operations

    The real answer is to use a B2B contract for a set deliverable and, most importantly, ensure you client agrees that you are actually there to do just that and nothing else. Otherwise, their safe solution is to put you inside IR35.
    Indeed. Qdos or any other. Qdos only being mentioned as a defacto example.

    In the suggested (ideal world) scenario, HMRC don't Have to take notice as the Client will deem outside if covered by insurance. And if the HMRC come a knocking, as in current times (at time of writing) in the Private Sector, it will be incumbent upon the HMRC to prove otherwise. If they don't, happy days. If they do, client covered by insurance.

    In an ideal world yes. SOWs and set deliverables. But would you want to anchor yourself to a project delivery that has been trucking along for four years and to only be paid once delivered in the next three months? (I am a project manager, which is why I am exemplifying this scenario)

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by simes View Post
    Indeed. Qdos or any other. Qdos only being mentioned as a defacto example.

    In the suggested (ideal world) scenario, HMRC don't Have to take notice as the Client will deem outside if covered by insurance. And if the HMRC come a knocking, as in current times (at time of writing) in the Private Sector, it will be incumbent upon the HMRC to prove otherwise. If they don't, happy days. If they do, client covered by insurance.

    In an ideal world yes. SOWs and set deliverables. But would you want to anchor yourself to a project delivery that has been trucking along for four years and to only be paid once delivered in the next three months? (I am a project manager, which is why I am exemplifying this scenario)
    You can't have it both ways. If you cannot break your big project into discrete deliverables, you maybe need to revisit your project plan. If you want to operate outside IR35, working as a business with the associated business risks is part of the solution, not part of the problem.

    In our upcoming brave new world, if you want a nice regular risk-free income, don't go contracting.
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  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    You can't have it both ways. If you cannot break your big project into discrete deliverables, you maybe need to revisit your project plan. If you want to operate outside IR35, working as a business with the associated business risks is part of the solution, not part of the problem.

    In our upcoming brave new world, if you want a nice regular risk-free income, don't go contracting.
    Oh, here we go.

    My dear sir, I am actually looking at this from the point of view of the end client and perhaps the agent. Not from my point of view, even though perhaps I did muddy the waters with my example of delayed projects... For which, many apologies.

    So, from this freshly clarified point of view, the client hopefully continues to want;

    1. Access to top level contractors, as opposed to whatever is left over from other Outside opportunities there may be, and
    2. An assurance that a bottom line will not be attacked by wrathful and random HMRC enquiries, which Could be achieved by
    3. A not costly insurance levy, in much the same way as contractors have had the offer and use of.

    And I am wondering if this might not be a way through for 'em.

    As for my view of risk and brave new worlds, with 19 years of no-benched contracting, it is all relative.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by simes View Post
    Oh, here we go.

    My dear sir, I am actually looking at this from the point of view of the end client and perhaps the agent. Not from my point of view, even though perhaps I did muddy the waters with my example of delayed projects... For which, many apologies.

    So, from this freshly clarified point of view, the client hopefully continues to want;

    1. Access to top level contractors, as opposed to whatever is left over from other Outside opportunities there may be, and
    2. An assurance that a bottom line will not be attacked by wrathful and random HMRC enquiries, which Could be achieved by
    3. A not costly insurance levy, in much the same way as contractors have had the offer and use of.

    And I am wondering if this might not be a way through for 'em.

    As for my view of risk and brave new worlds, with 19 years of no-benched contracting, it is all relative.
    And I repeat that the only sure way to safeguard their business is the same as yours - use a B2B arrangement, not a manpower resource one.

    Perhaps they should read this , as mentioned elsewhere recently...
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  10. #20

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    ...and thanked for elsewhere.

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