If not IR35, then what?

[malvolio]

OK, but just let me point this out in response to this -



none of these apply to me, yet Markel Tax's assessment of my contract is that it is outside of IR35. So I guess you, and HMRC, would claim that I'm not IBOYOA. So, IBOYOA isn't the only arrangement which can place a contractor outside of IR35. The key elements if you remember are SDC and the overall picture, which also to a lesser extent, includes the intentions of the parties. These are what determines the status.

Not being under direction and control and not having anything other than a bare minimum of Mutuality while delivering agreed outcomes for a third party is a fairly accurate description of being in business on your own account. It was, in fact, the main conclusion of the RMC case, that the owner drivers were independent businesses despite carrying all the trappings of the RMC branding.

HTH. BIDI.

[JohntheBike]

Not being under direction and control and not having anything other than a bare minimum of Mutuality while delivering agreed outcomes for a third party is a fairly accurate description of being in business on your own account. It was, in fact, the main conclusion of the RMC case, that the owner drivers were independent businesses despite carrying all the trappings of the RMC branding.

HTH. BIDI.

yes, that is clearly the legal definition, but there are those who claim that unless you contract directly with your client, do not use an agency to find work, have business cards, have a web site, have had to chase bad debts etc etc, then you are not IBOYOA. None of these apply to me. I'm afraid that there are those in some representative organisations who believe this also.

[malvolio]

yes, that is clearly the legal definition, but there are those who claim that unless you contract directly with your client, do not use an agency to find work, have business cards, have a web site, have had to chase bad debts etc etc, then you are not IBOYOA. None of these apply to me. I'm afraid that there are those in some representative organisations who believe this also.

There you go again. What was that about woods and trees?

[webberg]

None of these apply to me.

This thread is not about you, your history, your circumstances or how you dealt with them.

This thread is to discuss what an alternative to IR35 might look like.

We have (I think) reached a point whereby we are agreed that tinkering with what actually happens on the ground, via the tax system, is not a sensible way to proceed. Instead there needs to be a fundamental shift in how businesses and contractors approach, price and undertake the works required and from that there needs to be an objective set of rules developed.

We have therefore no interest in present or past individual circumstances.

If this thread, like many others, descends into another JtB reiteration of the same old, same old, then it will wither and die.

Please help us all by understanding that we have read your posts - we know your view - constant repetition of that view gives it no additional force - many of us disagree - those who do disagree are unlikely to be convinced by saying the same thing over and again.

If you have nothing new to add, please don't keep repeating what we have heard so often before.

[northernladuk]

Yes it is. Its all about JTB. Did you not know?

BTW Congrats on your win and nice to meet you.

[webberg]

Yes it is. Its all about JTB. Did you not know?

BTW Congrats on your win and nice to meet you.

Thank you and likewise.

[JohntheBike]

This thread is not about you, your history, your circumstances or how you dealt with them.

This thread is to discuss what an alternative to IR35 might look like.

We have (I think) reached a point whereby we are agreed that tinkering with what actually happens on the ground, via the tax system, is not a sensible way to proceed. Instead there needs to be a fundamental shift in how businesses and contractors approach, price and undertake the works required and from that there needs to be an objective set of rules developed.

We have therefore no interest in present or past individual circumstances.

If this thread, like many others, descends into another JtB reiteration of the same old, same old, then it will wither and die.

Please help us all by understanding that we have read your posts - we know your view - constant repetition of that view gives it no additional force - many of us disagree - those who do disagree are unlikely to be convinced by saying the same thing over and again.

If you have nothing new to add, please don't keep repeating what we have heard so often before.

This thread is not about you, your history, your circumstances or how you dealt with them.

I never claimed it was. Only you are interpreting it as so. My point is that there are many who would consider a contract like mine to be not IBOYOA, as those would have it that you must contract directly, show financial risk, go out seeking business, have a WEB site, have business cards, have multiple clients, etc etc. I'm just demonstrating that being classed as outside IR35 doesn't depend on those aspects of IBOYOA that others, including you I would suspect, would claim must be present to ward off IR35.

[webberg]

I never claimed it was.

You pepper your posts with constant references to you, your history, your story and how factors from years ago can influence what will happen in 2020. In the face of pretty much all other posters being of the view that - for this thread at least - we're looking at radical departures from the IR35 approach. Harping backwards to lessons that were dispensed and either ignored or which became irrelevant are not for this thread.

I have no idea what IBOYOA means. I therefore have no view on it.

I don't particularly want to "ward off" IR35. I'm indifferent as to whether IR35 applies to a situation or not. All I really want is that all parties know and understand their risks on day 1.

By all means contribute and suggest ways to resolve the present and future situations but please (really please) no more references to your situation from years ago.

[BlueSharp]

I always thought simplifying the tax system by merging income tax and national insurance into a single tax would solve the issue but that would not be palatable to the masses in the voting box when people see the real tax levels in this country.

The alternative is to get a labour government in who will raise corporation tax and possibly tip the balance that umbrella becomes more tax-effective than a PSC. On that train of thought getting rid of employers national insurance and just increasing corporation tax could fix the system.

[ladymuck]

The problem is we don't have any party with the vision or gumption to make any radical changes to anything, let alone the tax system. All they think about is their 4 (or is it 5?) year term and nothing features beyond that.

This means, unless we get a charismatic, driven leader who can unite a broken country, all we will ever get is tinkering around the edges and HMRC acting more and more beyond the law.