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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by WordIsBond View Post
    When people can go to the shops and find food they can buy to give to that food bank opposite your house. When those people who frequent that food bank opposite your house start texting on their mobile phones, using decent public transport to get there, some of them maybe even drive cars to get there, go home to watch their telly, have a decent hospital to attend when they fall ill, and when they do find a job, get a salary their parents could only have dreamed of.

    In Venezuela, Soviet Russia, and Warsaw Pact countries, run on the principles Corbyn wants, those things were all rare, and non-existent among the less well off. They exist even among the less well off in our society because we've had policies that encourage companies and individuals to make money, which has expanded the tax base so there are high benefits. We've had policies that encouraged efficiency and development of products so that prices have been low enough that even those on benefits can afford a telly and a mobile phone, etc.

    Go to Venezuela for a few weeks, go around and talk to people (if you will even be free to and if they aren't afraid to talk to you), and then come back and talk to us about trickle-down.
    Whataboutery.

    Why are you comparing current poverty in the U.K. (a first-world country, number 6 economy) to Venezuela and historical Eastern basket-cases? If you’re going to make a point, at least compare apples to apples.

    Is your argument that poverty in the U.K. doesn’t exist because people have a phone and a telly? And public transport to get them to the food bank? Really?

    Instead of asking me to go to Venezuela and walk around, perhaps you should get out of your bubble and walk around your own country for a few weeks and ask people here whether Universal Credit is working for them.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    Whataboutery.

    Why are you comparing current poverty in the U.K. (a first-world country, number 6 economy) to Venezuela and historical Eastern basket-cases? If you’re going to make a point, at least compare apples to apples.

    Is your argument that poverty in the U.K. doesn’t exist because people have a phone and a telly? And public transport to get them to the food bank? Really?

    Instead of asking me to go to Venezuela and walk around, perhaps you should get out of your bubble and walk around your own country for a few weeks and ask people here whether Universal Credit is working for them.
    Venezuela used to be one of the richest countries in South America, at least on a par with South European countries. It has been completely ruined, both economically and socially by left wing populism. In fact over 90% of the population now live in poverty. A country with the largest oil reserves in the world.

    Or compare Cuba and Hong Kong. From similar starting points in the past 60 years Hong Kongs economy has grown by 14x and Cuba's by 2x. Guess which one was capitalist? Or which one is endowed with bountiful natural resources?

    Thing is there is no persuading some people. No amount of evidence will ever convince them that socialism fails. Everywhere. Always.
    Last edited by Nazaire99; 28th November 2019 at 13:38.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazaire99 View Post
    Venezuela used to be one of the richest countries in South America, at least on a par with South European countries. It has been completely ruined, both economically and socially by left wing populism. In fact over 90% of the population now live in poverty. A country with the largest oil reserves in the world.

    Or compare Cuba and Hong Kong. From similar starting points in the past 60 years Hong Kongs economy has grown by 14x and Cuba's by 2x. Guess which one was capitalist? Or which one is endowed with bountiful natural resources?

    Thing is there is no persuading some people. No amount of evidence will ever convince them that socialism fails. Everywhere. Always.
    Venezuela is peddled out every time there is an argument against socialism. Our NHS is the direct result of socialist thinking. I doubt anyone is saying that Capitalism is evil however any idea taken to an extreme falls apart and that includes Capitalism. Just see the glorious private healthcare in the US. I would not wish that on anyone, and with Tories I am afraid we are very much headed that way.

    I accept that the current Labour party leans a bit too much to the left but then again this lot of Tories are downright evil in my view. I shudder to think what a majority government of monsters like Johnson/Cummings, Raab, Gove, Patel etc will do to our country in 5 years.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazaire99 View Post
    Venezuela used to be one of the richest countries in South America, at least on a par with South European countries. It has been completely ruined, both economically and socially by left wing populism. In fact over 90% of the population now live in poverty. A country with the largest oil reserves in the world.

    Or compare Cuba and Hong Kong. From similar starting points in the past 60 years Hong Kongs economy has grown by 14x and Cuba's by 2x. Guess which one was capitalist? Or which one is endowed with bountiful natural resources?

    Thing is there is no persuading some people. No amount of evidence will ever convince them that socialism fails. Everywhere. Always.
    More whataboutery.

    The question wasn’t whether socialism works or fails. Or about Venezuela, or Cuba, or Hong Kong.

    The question was when the trickle down from Conservative economics will be felt by large parts of this country.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    More whataboutery.

    The question wasn’t whether socialism works or fails. Or about Venezuela, or Cuba, or Hong Kong.

    The question was when the trickle down from Conservative economics will be felt by large parts of this country.
    I don't hold a brief for the Conservative party, but aren't they committed to raising the minimum wage to £10.50? That means that no full time worker will earn less than 2/3rd of the median salary. Or actually that wages are now rising consistently faster than inflation? Or that more people are in jobs (particularly full time jobs) than ever before?

    Are there still going to be poor people? Of course there are because there is no workable system that can take into account all peoples circumstances, particularly a change in circumstances.

    There is no perfect system, but you seem to be arguing that Labour will improve the lot of the poor. But as I've said and tried to evidence, left wing populism NEVER improves the lot of the poor. It just creates a lot more poor people. That has been proved time and time again over 100 years, but every new time it is tried the people doing it claim that proper socialism was never tried before and they have the magic formula to make it work this time. It is deluded.
    Last edited by Nazaire99; 28th November 2019 at 13:58.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ContractorOnAMotorbike View Post
    Venezuela is peddled out every time there is an argument against socialism. Our NHS is the direct result of socialist thinking. I doubt anyone is saying that Capitalism is evil however any idea taken to an extreme falls apart and that includes Capitalism. Just see the glorious private healthcare in the US. I would not wish that on anyone, and with Tories I am afraid we are very much headed that way.

    I accept that the current Labour party leans a bit too much to the left but then again this lot of Tories are downright evil in my view. I shudder to think what a majority government of monsters like Johnson/Cummings, Raab, Gove, Patel etc will do to our country in 5 years.
    Our NHS is the direct result of socialist thinking.
    Without Winston Churchill the NHS would not exist. | The BMJ

    Churchill was a Socialist then?

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazaire99 View Post
    I don't hold a brief for the Conservative party, but aren't they committed to raising the minimum wage to £10.50? That means that no full time worker will earn less than 2/3rd of the median salary. Or actually that wages are now rising consistently faster than inflation? Or that more people are in jobs (particularly full time jobs) than ever before?

    Are there still going to be poor people? Of course there are because there is no workable system that can take into account all peoples circumstances, particularly a change in circumstances.

    There is no perfect system, but you seem to be arguing that Labour will improve the lot of the poor. But as I've said and tried to evidence, left wing populism NEVER improves the lot of the poor. It just creates a lot more poor people. That has been proved time and time again over 100 years, but every new time it is tried the people doing it claim that proper socialism was never tried before and they have the magic formula to make it work this time. It is deluded.
    “Never”?

    That depends only if you have a narrow definition of “left wing socialism” that suits failed states like Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

    Try a broader definition of social democrats, or democratic socialists, that includes countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Etc.

    Interestingly, given your comparison to Hong Kong earlier, at least one commentator considers HK to be a social democrat country.

    What countries have social democracy? - Quora

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    “Never”?

    That depends only if you have a narrow definition of “left wing socialism” that suits failed states like Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

    Try a broader definition of social democrats, or democratic socialists, that includes countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Etc.

    Interestingly, given your comparison to Hong Kong earlier, at least one commentator considers HK to be a social democrat country.

    What countries have social democracy? - Quora
    Sorry but I think this thread on IR35 reform is drifting off course a bit. Just sayin'.
    Clarity is everything

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
    Compared to BoJo the clown and his mob, yes.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    “Never”?

    That depends only if you have a narrow definition of “left wing socialism” that suits failed states like Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

    Try a broader definition of social democrats, or democratic socialists, that includes countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Etc.

    Interestingly, given your comparison to Hong Kong earlier, at least one commentator considers HK to be a social democrat country.

    What countries have social democracy? - Quora
    Nice try but the nordic countries have a free market system coupled with high levels of taxation.

    Taking Sweden as an example, there are upfront fees to see a doctor. Also, there are plenty of private providers in their education system who are paid by the state for each pupil. They also have an extremely open economy.

    Labour take the high tax bit, but forget the pragmatism underlying how the nordic countries run (PS. Sweden tried but abandoned a financial transaction tax and their version of Mcdonnell's "inclusive ownership funds" because they were both abject failures).

    Finally don't make me laugh saying either Mcdonnell or Corbyn are Social Democrats. Mcdonnell is on record saying he is a Marxist and wants to destroy the capitalist system. BTW he was too left wing even for "red" Ken Livingstone who sacked him back in the day for covering up documents showing the GLC had plenty of money because Mcdonnell wanted to set an illegal budget.
    Last edited by Nazaire99; 28th November 2019 at 17:02.

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