New contract/client outside of IR35? Is this possible? New contract/client outside of IR35? Is this possible?
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  1. #1

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    Default New contract/client outside of IR35? Is this possible?

    Hi,

    Apologies I've posted on these forums recently about this (the wrong section I thnk), but I need some advice.

    A new contract/client has offered me a contract, which they've said is outside IR35 until July next year.

    I've had the contract checked by QDOS who have said there were issues with the contract, which have now been amended (word changes) and they're now happy with it.

    I spoke to my current recruitment agent to give my notice and he said be careful, as he didn't think companies were allowing this at all.

    I'm not sure what to do, has anyone else had experience with getting outside IR35 contracts?

    In this scenario, the consultancy is saying they will be assessing the contract (as I will be a consultant for them) and have said it's outside IR35 (confirmation received by e-mail) for the full 6 month period.

    Kind Regards

    Dave
    Last edited by Kesteral; 4th December 2019 at 16:22.

  2. #2

    Fingers like lightning

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kesteral View Post
    Hi,

    Apologies I've posted on these forums recently about this (the wrong section I thnk), but I need some advice.

    A new contract/client has offered me a contract, which they've said is outside IR35 until July next year.

    I've had the contract checked by QDOS who have said there were issues with the contract, which have now been amended (word changes) and they're now happy with it.

    I spoke to my current recruitment agent to give my notice and he said be careful, as he didn't think companies were allowing this at all.

    I'm not sure what to do, has anyone else had experience with getting outside IR35 contracts?

    In this scenario, the consultancy is saying they will be assessing the contract (as I will be a consultant for them) and have said it's outside IR35 (confirmation received by e-mail) for the full 6 month period.

    Kind Regards

    Dave

    The agent is talking claptrap. Ask QDOS who would the liability for income tax sit with if the determination was wrong.

    However I'm direct with a consultancy and have an outside IR35 determination, so yes they are very much about. Most of the noise is coming from the companies who have been using permie-tractors for years to cut their staffing costs. Let them get their houses in order first and I suspect we will see a return to outside contractors.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSharp View Post
    The agent is talking claptrap. Ask QDOS who would the liability for income tax sit with if the determination was wrong.

    However I'm direct with a consultancy and have an outside IR35 determination, so yes they are very much about. Most of the noise is coming from the companies who have been using permie-tractors for years to cut their staffing costs. Let them get their houses in order first and I suspect we will see a return to outside contractors.
    Thank you. They are saying as they're a consultancy I will be a consultant for them, not the eventual client. Hence their assessment of ir35. The contract is now good for outside IR35 after the amendments I've made, so what do you recommend I do or do you think this is good to go?

    Kind Regards

    Dave

  4. #4

    More time posting than coding


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    Assuming you're talking about a large private sector client, the client is only responsible for inside/outside determination from April 6th (assuming the changes go through as expected.) Determination prior to that date is down to you, no matter what the client says. Having documentation showing that the client considers the role to be outside would possibly be useful evidence in your favour but not conclusive.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amanensia View Post
    Assuming you're talking about a large private sector client, the client is only responsible for inside/outside determination from April 6th (assuming the changes go through as expected.) Determination prior to that date is down to you, no matter what the client says. Having documentation showing that the client considers the role to be outside would possibly be useful evidence in your favour but not conclusive.
    Good point but the OP said the contract was until July. They would be in breach of contract territory if they have told the OP it is outside and suddenly start deducting PAYE tax post April.

    OP it seems like you have a similar arrangement to me except my end client is public sector. As far as I'm concerned with my arrangement the contract is outside I have proof that is the determination given to me by the consultancy and the liability will sit with the client/consultant if it's wrong.

  6. #6

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    Read this, it’s the best explanation of your situation that I’ve come across.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick@Intouch View Post
    The end client can be assessed as being the ultimate entity in the chain asking for a provision of labour.

    If company A has a development need and asks company B to provide labour resource to facilitate the delivery of the whole project, or areas thereof then company A is the end client.

    If, however company A outsources the delivery of the project, or areas thereof to company B AND it is up to company B to decide on resource levels and source that labour needed then company B should be considered to be the end client.

    In the second scenario, company A is the consumer and company B is producing the product that company A consumes.
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  7. #7

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    Just be aware that words in a contract mean little without being backed by real working practices matching the words.
    Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by cojak View Post
    Read this, it’s the best explanation of your situation that I’ve come across.
    This scenario is of some concern for me. I supply my services to an end client through a software house. However, it is the software house that is issuing communications on the April 2020 roll out and not the client. There will be an announcement from the software house on policy next week, and not the end client. QDOS has been engaged by the software house, so I guess between them they have established who is responsible for determining the issues. However, what if HMRC disagree with this approach and judge that it is the end client who needs to determine the issues?

  9. #9

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    Interested to hear the best way of getting the client to state that the contract will be determined outside of IR35 from April 6th. I assume this would have to be worded into the contract if you want to avoid being given your notice towards the end of March when the client realises what they've agreed to

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
    This scenario is of some concern for me. I supply my services to an end client through a software house. However, it is the software house that is issuing communications on the April 2020 roll out and not the client. There will be an announcement from the software house on policy next week, and not the end client. QDOS has been engaged by the software house, so I guess between them they have established who is responsible for determining the issues. However, what if HMRC disagree with this approach and judge that it is the end client who needs to determine the issues?
    a) It's not your problem
    b) HMRC aren't going to be knocking on those doors for quite some time so forget about it.
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