outside IR35 before..inside after?

[Si666]

What are IPSEs guidelines on the new legislation and determinations?

If you are found inside and carry on with the client using an Umbrella, will they still defend you? Does IPSE recommend that you leave if found inside at the risk of invalidating your IR35 insurance?

If you are relying on IPSE then it is important to know what their take on the new rules are and how you as a policyholder with them are expected to navigate through the new process, in order to ensure that you are not invalidating your cover.

I myself am not a member of IPSE, but those that are and are relying on them should speak to them and be clear as to what you need to do prior to/when the new legislation comes in.

Nothing official out, but a post went on the forum this week stating the importance of having completely new contracts if forced inside by the client. And the contracts should be suitably different to each other. If investigated into previous years IPSE coverage will apply.

Doesn't mean I'll be renewing my existing contract. Safest way is to move on.

[JohntheBike]

Nothing official out, but a post went on the forum this week stating the importance of having completely new contracts if forced inside by the client. And the contracts should be suitably different to each other. If investigated into previous years IPSE coverage will apply.

Doesn't mean I'll be renewing my existing contract. Safest way is to move on.

There is a different point of view, which clearly will depend on personal circumstances. If the client SDS indicates that the engagement is subject to the new rules, without altering the contract, thus effectively signalling to HMRC that the role was always subject to IR35, then clearly the client would be exposing themselves to a claim for employment benefits in the ET.

Clearly IPSE's policy has always been to not support such an approach and I would judge by this post that they are still trying to avoid this scenario. If the current engagement is outside of IR35 and this can be supported with independent evidence, then it matters less what the new situation will be. Clearly if the current engagement is actually inside IR35 and has been declared as outside, then that is a different matter.

[ComplianceLady]

I'd be a little surprised if that is the standard way forward. Yes some of the big boys have done it but can't see that being universal. All the public sectors went inside with no hint of avoiding a determination so don't see it being the answer.


I find this very difficult to believe indeed. I can't imagine this was a consideration for any of the banks and the like we've heard off so far and can't believe they'll deviate from advice from tax specialists just to help contractors.

I can only tell you my experience - I've spoken to 300 ish clients over the last year and I attend an event generally a couple of times a month with others from the industry - FCSA, IPSE, APSCO plus compliance professionals in recruiters and end clients. I ask this question every time 'do you expect to see true inside working post April 2020 in large numbers?' the answer is always no. Umbrella or PAYE only. Every client I've spoken to that has roles they can't keep outside, is happy to smooth the way by not issuing SDS prematurely.

I'm not sure what you mean by deviating from advice?

To be clear though this isn't what the banks have done. I'm talking about clients assessing roles then offering outside contracts to some and PAYE contracts to others. Not blanketing.

I expect roles next year to be outside IR35 or Umbrella/PAYE. Why would a client recruit a role inside IR35 and then have to engage in an appeal process? If they think it's not outside just dictate only umbrella/PAYE candidates.

[ComplianceLady]

Guess it depends on the client. I've heard of several who have already declared that they will push contractors inside IR35 next year. I'm just going to take a short term gig with a new client in the new year, then re-evaluate the situation after April. Might go over seas again if the landscape isn't good.

I don't think a lot of clients actually get it - they say 'inside' but they mean PAYE.

[Paralytic]

I don't think a lot of clients actually get it - they say 'inside' but they mean PAYE.

A lot of contractors don't get it either. They say inside but they mean the client has made a policy decision to not engage with PSC beyond March 2020.

[JohntheBike]

I can only tell you my experience - I've spoken to 300 ish clients over the last year and I attend an event generally a couple of times a month with others from the industry - FCSA, IPSE, APSCO plus compliance professionals in recruiters and end clients. I ask this question every time 'do you expect to see true inside working post April 2020 in large numbers?' the answer is always no. Umbrella or PAYE only. Every client I've spoken to that has roles they can't keep outside, is happy to smooth the way by not issuing SDS prematurely.

I'm not sure what you mean by deviating from advice?

To be clear though this isn't what the banks have done. I'm talking about clients assessing roles then offering outside contracts to some and PAYE contracts to others. Not blanketing.

I expect roles next year to be outside IR35 or Umbrella/PAYE. Why would a client recruit a role inside IR35 and then have to engage in an appeal process? If they think it's not outside just dictate only umbrella/PAYE candidates.

I expect roles next year to be outside IR35 or Umbrella/PAYE.

yes, it's looking very much like that. This would also avoid any full employment claims. However, the PAYE situation could be directly with the client or through a software house.

[dsc]

Why would a client recruit a role inside IR35 and then have to engage in an appeal process?

What appeal process? genuinely curious here.

[JohntheBike]

What appeal process? genuinely curious here.

anyone who issues an SDS must also engage with the appeals process and respond in a little over 40 days.

[northernladuk]

What appeal process? genuinely curious here.

You have to appeal the decision with your client in the first instance.. Good luck with that.

[dsc]

You have to appeal the decision with your client in the first instance.. Good luck with that.

That's why I'm asking, I just assumed that once the client decided it's a done deal.