Updated government factsheet (can't spot the change though)

[ChimpMaster]

Looks like this was updated yesterday:

Off-payroll working rules from April 2020: Factsheet - GOV.UK

Besides all the usual HMRC rhetoric in the documents, I'm pondering the point below, particularly the part in bold.

Addressing key concerns
7. Since the introduction of the public sector reform, and during consultations, the Government has listened to the views of stakeholders. On the basis of their feedback, it can confirm:
• The reform is not retrospective. As was the case in the public sector, HMRC will focus on ensuring businesses comply with the reform for new engagements, rather than focusing on historic cases


A "new engagement" would imply a new contract, would it not?

So shouldn't this mean that any existing contracts that run beyond April 2020 are exempt from a client-determination, until such time that a renewal is due?

[JohntheBike]

Looks like this was updated yesterday:

Off-payroll working rules from April 2020: Factsheet - GOV.UK

Besides all the usual HMRC rhetoric in the documents, I'm pondering the point below, particularly the part in bold.

Addressing key concerns
7. Since the introduction of the public sector reform, and during consultations, the Government has listened to the views of stakeholders. On the basis of their feedback, it can confirm:
• The reform is not retrospective. As was the case in the public sector, HMRC will focus on ensuring businesses comply with the reform for new engagements, rather than focusing on historic cases


A "new engagement" would imply a new contract, would it not?

So shouldn't this mean that any existing contracts that run beyond April 2020 are exempt from a client-determination, until such time that a renewal is due?

So shouldn't this mean that any existing contracts that run beyond April 2020 are exempt from a client-determination, until such time that a renewal is due?

we might like to think so, but HMRC couldn't possibly comment.

[messymess]

we might like to think so, but HMRC couldn't possibly comment.

to me its very clear that historical practices will not be affected.

==============
Point7, Bullet Point 1.

The reform is not retrospective. As was the case in the public sector, HMRC will focus on
ensuring businesses comply with the reform for new engagements, rather than focusing on
historic cases. HMRC will not carry out targeted campaigns into previous years when
individuals start paying employment taxes under IR35 for the first time. Organisations’
decisions about whether workers are within the rules will not automatically trigger an enquiry
into earlier years.
==============

[jamesbrown]

This "addressing key concerns" should be read as "to everyone not paying attention, such as MPs, we're adding this sentence so that you can feel better and keep not paying attention".

"Focusing" and "automatically" are fascinating words.

[eek]

This "addressing key concerns" should be read as "to everyone not paying attention, such as MPs, we're adding this sentence so that you can feel better and keep not paying attention".

"Focusing" and "automatically" are fascinating words.

For those hard of thinking - any report manually run is not automatically generated.

[ChimpMaster]

to me its very clear that historical practices will not be affected.

==============
Point7, Bullet Point 1.

The reform is not retrospective. As was the case in the public sector, HMRC will focus on
ensuring businesses comply with the reform for new engagements, rather than focusing on
historic cases. HMRC will not carry out targeted campaigns into previous years when
individuals start paying employment taxes under IR35 for the first time. Organisations’
decisions about whether workers are within the rules will not automatically trigger an enquiry
into earlier years.
==============

Methinks there is much naivety in this one. If you have ever fought HMRC you will know how aggressive, non-sensical and downright evil they can be.

Of course the IR35 reform isn't retrospective. Though it might well be retroactive if it impacts existing contracts. And that is the point of my original post above: HMRC's factsheet appears to imply that the Status Determination will not apply to existing contracts, even if they go beyond April 2020; it is only when the contracts are renewed i.e. a #new engagement# that the determination needs to be made.

Am I the only one reading the regulations in this way?

[jamesbrown]

No, the draft legislation is quite clear about that:

The amendments made by Part 2 of this Schedule have effect in relation to deemed direct payments treated as made on or after 6 April 2020, and does so even if relating to services provided before that date.

Part 2 includes responsibilities surrounding the SDS.

[eek]

Methinks there is much naivety in this one. If you have ever fought HMRC you will know how aggressive, non-sensical and downright evil they can be.

Of course the IR35 reform isn't retrospective. Though it might well be retroactive if it impacts existing contracts. And that is the point of my original post above: HMRC's factsheet appears to imply that the Status Determination will not apply to existing contracts, even if they go beyond April 2020; it is only when the contracts are renewed i.e. a #new engagement# that the determination needs to be made.

Am I the only one reading the regulations in this way?

Equally it's worth reading it the way a vindictive HMRC minion will read this.

Historic engagements are not covered.
Future engagements follow the new rules so aren't covered.

But it doesn't say anything about existing, ongoing engagements (and the report to generate that information is available if manually run)...

[Paralytic]

Methinks there is much naivety in this one. If you have ever fought HMRC you will know how aggressive, non-sensical and downright evil they can be.

Of course the IR35 reform isn't retrospective. Though it might well be retroactive if it impacts existing contracts. And that is the point of my original post above: HMRC's factsheet appears to imply that the Status Determination will not apply to existing contracts, even if they go beyond April 2020; it is only when the contracts are renewed i.e. a #new engagement# that the determination needs to be made.

Am I the only one reading the regulations in this way?

Is a renewal at an existing client a new engagement. My bet says HMRC says no.

[eek]

Is a renewal at an existing client a new engagement. My bet says HMRC says no.

Nope as I said above it's an existing, ongoing engagements.

Either someone didn't ask the appropriate question or HMRC are being their usual unhelpful selves and keeping a massive target open and phrasing things in a way they don't think people will notice.

Hint - some of us are very cynical. good at similar types of tricks and can see right through them..