IR35 review roundtables

[LetterBox]

Given that companies are already implementing their strategies - the damage has been done.

Nothing and no-one is going to fix things now as you can't turn back the clock and remove a blanket ban without looking foolish.

Or...

In 6 months time when things get worked out and these blanket ban businesses look to now be at a disadvantage, they then reach out to the market offering roles to FCs (Facilitation Companies). Blanket ban remains in place for PSCs.

World order is restored.

[NeedTheSunshine]

Something along the lines of turning on the new rules but not prosecuting people that break them. Which sounds nice, but is a mechanism for allowing bad practices to develop and become normal.

In other words, the hugely incompetent HMRC once again failing to understand the damage they are doing.

HMRC may be incompetent (totally agree with that) but they will get around to prosecuting people/sending enquiries/stopping obvious contractor Ltd companies shutting down etc. Not immediately but I bet they will be moving resources into this area. It's easy money. You were outside, now you're inside/perm at same client. Cough up the tax due. And it's not retrospective as your outside assessment pre April 2020 was incorrect.

And I also reckon that HMRC would believe about 90% of contractors should have been declaring inside but were declaring outside.

[simes]

HMRC may be incompetent (totally agree with that) but they will get around to prosecuting people/sending enquiries/stopping obvious contractor Ltd companies shutting down etc. Not immediately but I bet they will be moving resources into this area. It's easy money. You were outside, now you're inside/perm at same client. Cough up the tax due. And it's not retrospective as your outside assessment pre April 2020 was incorrect.

And I also reckon that HMRC would believe about 90% of contractors should have been declaring inside but were declaring outside.

I can envisage the other scenario.

You were outside and now you've been erroneously declared inside.

A court case ensues and the contractor is found to be outside after all.

HMRC to cough up the back taxes.

Other clients look on with amazement and new found confidences...

[ladymuck]

I can envisage the other scenario.

You were outside and now you've been erroneously declared inside.

A court case ensues and the contractor is found to be outside after all.

HMRC to cough up the back taxes.

Other clients look on with amazement and new found confidences...

I love your sense of humour

[NeedTheSunshine]

I can envisage the other scenario.

You were outside and now you've been erroneously declared inside.

A court case ensues and the contractor is found to be outside after all.

HMRC to cough up the back taxes.

Other clients look on with amazement and new found confidences...

I wonder what odds Betfair would give on that scenario?

[simes]

I wonder what odds Betfair would give on that scenario?

Right now, probably not good.

But back in 2000 when IR35 was first introduced, and with just as little hardened experiences, what odds would Betfair have given contractors then to go up against HMRC? Much less win cases.

And now in 2019/early 2020, what odds would people have given for the same?

Fast forward to the first few court cases between Clients and HMRC and you just know where I will be putting my beans.

[malvolio]

I wonder what odds Betfair would give on that scenario?

Pretty bad, at a guess. You may take your case to an FTT. If you lose, you appeal and HMRC drop the case to prevent setting case law. You win and HMRC don't appeal for the same reason. They don't want clarity.

What we need after April is some brave soul (or ideally several hundred of them) to challenge a determination at FTT on the basis that the determination is incorrect. Only then will we get some sort of sense to prevail.

[NeedTheSunshine]

Pretty bad, at a guess. You may take your case to an FTT. If you lose, you appeal and HMRC drop the case to prevent setting case law. You win and HMRC don't appeal for the same reason. They don't want clarity.

What we need after April is some brave soul (or ideally several hundred of them) to challenge a determination at FTT on the basis that the determination is incorrect. Only then will we get some sort of sense to prevail.

Thing is, most contractors are burying their head in the sand. If you can't get people to turn up for a peaceful protest, get in touch with their MP etc even though HMRC could potentially be knocking at their door in the not too distant future asking for large amounts of back tax how will you find 100s of candidates to challenge a FTT determination? And you need deep pockets. Plus the stress of dragging it out for years and years as it rumbles through the courts. That's why contractors are easy pickings.

[JohntheBike]

Pretty bad, at a guess. You may take your case to an FTT. If you lose, you appeal and HMRC drop the case to prevent setting case law. You win and HMRC don't appeal for the same reason. They don't want clarity.

What we need after April is some brave soul (or ideally several hundred of them) to challenge a determination at FTT on the basis that the determination is incorrect. Only then will we get some sort of sense to prevail.

to challenge a determination at FTT on the basis that the determination is incorrect.

or in the ET to accept that the determination is correct!

[JohntheBike]

[QUOTE=NeedTheSunshine;2717804]Thing is, most contractors are burying their head in the sand. If you can't get people to turn up for a peaceful protest, get in touch with their MP etc even though HMRC could potentially be knocking at their door in the not too distant future asking for large amounts of back tax how will you find 100s of candidates to challenge a FTT determination? And you need pockets. Plus the stress of dragging it out for years and years as it rumbles through the courts. That's why contractors are easy pickings.[/QUOTe

And you need pockets

My ET cost £2000 in 2000 and the EAT cost £6000 in 2002

£2000 is £3,391.78 in today's money.

£6000 is ££9,834.27 in today's money