Worth one last final try?

[NeedTheSunshine]

By the way, I'm open to being told I'm wrong here if I'm missing some detail of the reform that makes it much more than just a shift in liability. My point is that the clients are the problem, beyond the obvious issues with IR35 that's been around for ages.

You can't change the clients. You can only influence the politicians to change the law. I do agree that it's probably too late now. Action should have been taken a while back.

I don't blame the clients for minimising risk. That is exactly what the IR35 liability shift change was meant to do. Basically shaft contractors.

[WordIsBond]

By the way, I'm open to being told I'm wrong here if I'm missing some detail of the reform that makes it much more than just a shift in liability. My point is that the clients are the problem, beyond the obvious issues with IR35 that's been around for ages.

It is much more than just a shift in liability. It means that a biased party is determining your tax burden. It means that they make that determination not based merely on the justice of the matter but on their own concerns. The person/company that determines your tax liability is threatened by the power of the state if they decide on a lower rather than higher number.

In short, it's a violation of due process, placing contractors before a biased tax tribunal.

[messymess]

You can't change the clients. You can only influence the politicians to change the law. I do agree that it's probably too late now. Action should have been taken a while back.

I don't blame the clients for minimising risk. That is exactly what the IR35 liability shift change was meant to do. Basically shaft contractors.

I'll be there and I think its worth every penny if the message goes across before new budget comes out.

[northernladuk]

I'll be there and I think its worth every penny if the message goes across before new budget comes out.

What will make the message go out now when it hasn't before?

[simes]

Clients are not going to change their minds unless the law is changed.

To be fair, the law doesn't need to change, just the clients' implementation of such.

If in time it can be seen that contractors and clients alike can go to court against the HMRC, and win, then the HMRC in this case will be seen to be utterly inept in their implementation of this law. And it will be a case study of over 20 years, bless 'em.

[TwoWolves]

It isn't law yet, it's in draft. It's implementation can be delayed, repealed or modified substantially prior to April.

Governments rarely throw things out but they often water them down to the extent that they have a much lower impact. I can think of a lot of companies that would turn on a dime to get contractors back in on projects if this were to happen.

Brexit + Coronavirus + IR35 is going to smack the economy quite hard in one quarter.

[messymess]

It isn't law yet, it's in draft. It's implementation can be delayed, repealed or modified substantially prior to April.

Governments rarely throw things out but they often water them down to the extent that they have a much lower impact. I can think of a lot of companies that would turn on a dime to get contractors back in on projects if this were to happen.

Brexit + Coronavirus + IR35 is going to smack the economy quite hard in one quarter.

this!

[JohntheBike]

It is much more than just a shift in liability. It means that a biased party is determining your tax burden. It means that they make that determination not based merely on the justice of the matter but on their own concerns. The person/company that determines your tax liability is threatened by the power of the state if they decide on a lower rather than higher number.

In short, it's a violation of due process, placing contractors before a biased tax tribunal.

placing contractors before a biased tax tribunal

and I thought I was the only one who believed that. Remember the FTT used to be called the "Commissioners for Taxes", or similar, and were always biased in my opinion.

[JohntheBike]

To be fair, the law doesn't need to change, just the clients' implementation of such.

If in time it can be seen that contractors and clients alike can go to court against the HMRC, and win, then the HMRC in this case will be seen to be utterly inept in their implementation of this law. And it will be a case study of over 20 years, bless 'em.

can go to court against the HMRC,

the trick will be to go to court when HMRC have no say in the issue.

[unixman]

Had a call last week from an old friend who works for a certain Chinese tech company. He isn't a contractor but was looking for IR35 advice. Basically, they are faced with making a tax determination on contractors, and they don't know what to do. Discussions are being held now. I put the contractors' case. He considered that and said changing the tax status of contractors would reduce their income, so the Company would have to pay more, to which I could only agree.

Generally, the new rules might or might not increase the tax take. Companies will be faced with paying more to get the contractors they need, or messing around making individual determinations, or risking tax investigation. The interim chaos and fear will damage and retard projects, just at the time Britain needs to take them forward (cf. Brexit).

Personally, I don't mind going back to Umbrella. I don't see it as a big financial hit anyway, what with the expense of running a Ltd. Ultimately, somebody has to provide temporary expertise for things like HS2, 5G and the rest of it, and the temporary experts are not going to take a risk if there is no reward to go with it.