My story, and how it's relavent to recent IR35 determinations and corporate scapegoat My story, and how it's relavent to recent IR35 determinations and corporate scapegoat - Page 5
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  1. #41

    Nervous Newbie


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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    You don't agree, but that doesn't mean that after however many decades working for one company, with no possible substitute and no desire to look elsewhere for work, that you represent what contracting is about.

    You are exactly the sort of person that HMRC are going after - and the reason why the rest of us are suffering.
    This is exactly the type of misguided thinking that benefits only those who stand to gain from our collective suffering. We suffer for different reasons but we still suffer. Let' stop and look at the elephant in the room, who is not suffering. Maybe then it will become clear just how "convenient" all the suffering is to the elephant.

    I see three kinds of people here:


    1. Those who truly, in mind and in practice, operate as independent contractors. As so beautifully described by @cojak in https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/ir35-reform/129193-forced-into-contracting-read.html
    2. Those who heard the buzz word "contracting" and either entered into it willingly or forcefully without knowing what they were getting into and therefor susceptible to being exploited by their soon to be masters.
    3. Those who understand enough about contracting but with a false sense of believe as to just how far the "tax benefits" extend when operating under a limited company. The ultimate goal here is to reduce the tax liability and maximise net take-home. They have no sense of what true freedom is and the responsibilities that comes with it. They have no objections to being slaves to their masters and even though some are oblivious to the fact most use the excuse of proclaimed "financial benefit" to justify their true inner suffering.


    The problem, as I see it, is that on a community/worker class level is that group 2 and 3 are characterised as being one in the same by group 1, resulting in material and psychological grievances between [group 1] and [group 2+3].

    I'm sorry, but this has been described by the courts in many employment status disputes. The 2nd and 3rd group have been described by various high/supreme courts as being an "intermediate class of worker" or "limb b" and who are subordinate and usually carries out the work personally. Subordination does NOT and can NOT exist in group 1, yet somehow, on top of the already misguided grievances between the groups, they are now all grouped under one umbrella as "Self-employed", aka independent contractor!! No wonder it takes a supreme court judge to untangle this mess! Yet somehow we think we have all the answers by pointing fingers at one another?

    How can three groups of people said to represent a single group when their ideology is fundamentally different. This is not a black and white problem and cannot be solved with force or economic penalties. In my opinion it would require exposing the elephant, educating the ignorant and punishing those who choose to continue after being so educated.

    I hope you can see just how counter-productive these kind of remarks are. I'm not suggesting that we are somehow faultless in our ocean of despair, but our contribution to our collective suffering is mostly due to ignorance and NOT malevolence. The same cannot be said of those pulling the strings.
    Last edited by phillyleads; 20th February 2020 at 00:46.

  2. #42

    Contractor Among Contractors

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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyleads View Post
    our contribution to our collective suffering is mostly due to ignorance and NOT malevolence.
    Our collective suffering is HMRC coming after contractors to conform to IR35, and winning. For nearly twenty years everyone has known the Revenue wanted to treat contractors as PAYE. After two decades of failure they pick a clever strategy that has moved things from negligible to very significant in terms of compliance. Your social anthropological analysis, with notions of exploitation, freedom etc, is completely disconnected with the simple reality. Incidentally no contractor I've ever met has expressed such sentiments.
    "Don't part with your illusions; when they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live" Mark Twain

  3. #43

    I Am Legend


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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyleads View Post
    The problem, as I see it, is that........
    Opinions are like bottoms. We all have one - no-one wants to hear about anyone elses.

    Sadly you have entirely missed the point. Still, never mind....

  4. #44

    Prof Cunning @ Oxford Uni

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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyleads View Post
    This is exactly the type of misguided thinking that benefits only those who stand to gain from our collective suffering. We suffer for different reasons but we still suffer. Let' stop and look at the elephant in the room, who is not suffering. Maybe then it will become clear just how "convenient" all the suffering is to the elephant.
    I was replying to a very specific person who has 1 client, has worked there for well over a decade, has no substitute and claims to understand the law and financial processes of contracting - and is happy to derail every thread to talk about himself.

    That is different to NHS workers being forced but he current corrupt government to become "contractors".

    But it is not different to people who choose to become contractors and are only interested in working for one company in one location for several years doing one job that could equally be done by a permanent employee.
    I'm perfect, in a very specific and limited way.
    Hands... out infractions
    Face... the music
    Space... between the ears

  5. #45

    My post count is Majestic

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohntheBike View Post
    but they do have some level of influence!
    OK so there is a difference between you and them then.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrilloPad View Post
    Opinions are like bottoms. We all have one - no-one wants to hear about anyone elses.
    Are you telling me that all these women who have been saying for so many years how much they like mine were lying?

  7. #47

    My post count is Majestic

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrilloPad View Post
    Opinions are like bottoms. We all have one - no-one wants to hear about anyone elses.

    Sadly you have entirely missed the point. Still, never mind....
    SimonMac has one and no one wants to hear about it but apparently he showed everyone anyway.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

  8. #48

    bored now

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    SimonMac has one and no one wants to hear about it but apparently he showed everyone anyway.
    Be glad you never worked with him
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

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