• Visitors can check out the Forum FAQ by clicking this link. You have to register before you can post: click the REGISTER link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. View our Forum Privacy Policy.
  • Want to receive the latest contracting news and advice straight to your inbox? Sign up to the ContractorUK newsletter here. Every sign up will also be entered into a draw to WIN £100 Amazon vouchers!

IR35 - Finance Contractors Try to Play Hardball

Collapse
X
  •  
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #11
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    Question is.. Where will they all go? Leave one client with inside determinations to go work at another, who's contractors all left because of determinations?

    All thst will happen is a merry go round as we've said all along.
    Either that or when push comes to shove some of those 50 out of 53 contractors will cave in. The market out there isn't great. Contractors aren't known for sticking together union style. Or DB will give a rate uplift to some of the contractors that they really value and the rest can take it or leave it. Divide and conquer.

    Comment


      #12
      Originally posted by NeedTheSunshine View Post
      Either that or when push comes to shove some of those 50 out of 53 contractors will cave in. The market out there isn't great. Contractors aren't known for sticking together union style. Or DB will give a rate uplift to some of the contractors that they really value and the rest can take it or leave it. Divide and conquer.
      Exactly. Article says 50/53 are 'considering' leaving. Once they've considered it, they'll just roll over.
      If you don't have anything nice to say, say it sarcastically

      Comment


        #13
        £100 extra on their day rate would shut them up for now.

        Quite a lot of people with significant expenses work in banking - typically you can look at £120 train + £250 hotel for a week suddenly having to be found out of take home, which in itself is reduced via PAYE taxation rather than tax/divi split. Where they'll get no support from the public is if the public find out about the PAYE + divi "avoidance" that contractors do, especially where the spouse is in on it, even if their opponent is a bank.
        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

        Comment


          #14
          Originally posted by simes View Post
          Excellent.

          This is exactly the sort of action all seasoned contractors should be taking if adversely affected by all large clients.

          And in 2-3 months (wild guess), there would be, by necessity, a reversal of client thinking.
          Damn right. Contractors by their very nature tend to be lone wolfs, but over IR35 I think we should all adopt a code of conduct and walk out on mass from clients that are doing this. In fact every major PLC has gone down the blanket approach. My current end client is QinetiQ and out of 100 contracts they deemed 98 inside.

          I honestly think these firms have got their heads up their arses over this and I don't think they've quite considered the implications should a great many contractors pull the plug and walk in the next few weeks.

          Comment


            #15
            Originally posted by LondonManc View Post

            Where they'll get no support from the public is if the public find out about the PAYE + divi "avoidance" that contractors do, especially where the spouse is in on it, even if their opponent is a bank.
            you've hit the nail

            Comment


              #16
              Originally posted by LondonManc View Post
              Where they'll get no support from the public is if the public find out about the PAYE + divi "avoidance" that contractors do, especially where the spouse is in on it, even if their opponent is a bank.
              Which is why we've lost the argument before we even start.

              Brown started it with banging on about people paying fair share. It became an argument away from paying what you legally have to and towards being expected to pay what you morally should.

              Pre 2008, when I used to have discussions about IR35 outside of the industry, people were at least superficially sympathetic.

              in 2020, people just see us as high paid individuals using tax avoidance schemes. They don't see how we are different to 0 hours workers or agency temps.

              I don't agree, obviously, but I think its the main reason we have had no traction. And actually, I think the Tories are in an invidious position. If they back down, they'll be seen as giving tax breaks to the well paid by letting them continue with avoidance.

              It does not matter what the reality is, that is how the red tops and the chav fodder media will play it and we have no sympathy out there.

              Comment


                #17
                Originally posted by juckky View Post

                I honestly think these firms have got their heads up their arses over this and I don't think they've quite considered the implications should a great many contractors pull the plug and walk in the next few weeks.
                I don't think a great many contractors realise that if they pull the plug then the client may suffer a little pain in projects being delayed, but they'll find someone to fill the void and the world will continue to revolve.

                Comment


                  #18
                  I think fair taxation could be achieved without IR35 existing - scrap it and put a simple formula in place:

                  End of year assessment:
                  Revenue - Costs = Profit

                  Don't class contractors as having salaries. Call it take home pay.
                  Revenue is all Ex VAT paid invoices in that year
                  Costs are all legitimate business expenses - kit, travel, accommodation, accountant fees, insurance, office rental, whatever it may be
                  Profit is what is left before anything else is taken, salary, pension, etc.
                  Say this is 80k.
                  12% must go into a pension
                  x% must go to the gonverment as some sort of small business tax
                  y% must be retained to cover ongoing costs
                  z% is a take home for the shareholders (max 2) of the company.
                  Where x and y are to be determined and reflect the transient nature of contracting; expense claims can continue past two years, but perhaps increase x by 1 or 2 for every year that you're at the same client to discourage "permietracting".

                  This still means that Customs & Excise get a nice wedge of VAT revenue, HMRC don't have to worry about assessments and contractors must enter their monthly figures online. In theory, contractors could save by not needing an accountant because they are entering everything into a government portal, with fully-receipted expenses being a requirement for claiming them. Each month, then, government tells you what you can take out, what needs to be sent to your pension provider, what needs to be paid to them, etc.

                  Seems far easier to automate it until people have the ambition to go beyond the one-man-band model. Recruitment agency/client co log your details on the government portal as part of the contract kick off and the link is sent to you.
                  The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

                  Comment


                    #19
                    Any change would be abused to the nth degree so HMRC aren't going to do that, nor are they going to treat people differently.

                    And Mookiemoo is right - why should anyone treat us as any better than your agency temp...
                    merely at clientco for the entertainment

                    Comment


                      #20
                      There was the FLC concept bandied about for a while, back in 2014/15 but it never took off

                      Freelancer Limited Company | IPSE

                      Complicated tax systems have benefits for both HMRC and companies as each try to use convoluted means to pay less / collect more. There is no will to make things simple and clear.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X