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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    But it sounds nice.

    It's also irrelevant as I think you would easily be have until the end of the tax year to resolve any mistakes you make during it.
    Yes but the headline being sold is 'softer approach in year 1' - the detail is not that. It's cynical and dangerous. I don't have many good things to say about HMRC but this really is poor.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    ...the question is what do they mean by fraud.
    They mean everything, here is HMRC's 'definition': "The general term ‘fraud’ has a wide significance and there is no simple definition which covers the full range of conduct to which it may be applied. "

    EM5105 - Enquiry Manual - HMRC internal manual - GOV.UK

    'Suspect fraud' can mean pretty much whatever they want it to.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouWester View Post
    'Suspect fraud' can mean pretty much whatever they want it to.
    This. They don't have to prove fraud. So long as they can come up with a reason to say they suspected fraud, even if it later turns out to be completely unfounded, they can open an investigation and still comply with their "promise".

  4. #14

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    It is a slight improvement for those that have done the due diligence and got their contracts reviewed, insurance in place, working practices agreed etc. and have what under the current rules would be a clear outside determination.

    If HMRC try to justify an investigation on the basis of fraud they would have a hard time doing that since the contractor has clearly taken steps to ensure that the decision on status was properly considered.

    In the event of an enquiry letter a response from QDOS etc demonstrating that this had been done should persuade them to move onto easier targets who haven't done things properly.
    "Being nice costs nothing and sometimes gets you extra bacon" - Pondlife.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
    It is a slight improvement for those that have done the due diligence and got their contracts reviewed, insurance in place, working practices agreed etc. and have what under the current rules would be a clear outside determination.

    If HMRC try to justify an investigation on the basis of fraud they would have a hard time doing that since the contractor has clearly taken steps to ensure that the decision on status was properly considered.

    In the event of an enquiry letter a response from QDOS etc demonstrating that this had been done should persuade them to move onto easier targets who haven't done things properly.
    Which is where we have always been when it comes to retrospective investigations (ala GSK). Those who respond with a professional letter written by an expert are going to be left well alone as HMRC moves to an easier target (after all there will be a lot to choose from).
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    Which is where we have always been when it comes to retrospective investigations (ala GSK). Those who respond with a professional letter written by an expert are going to be left well alone as HMRC moves to an easier target (after all there will be a lot to choose from).
    The concern was though that HMRC would use an Inside determination by the client to challenge *any* move from outside to inside regardless of what the contractor had done. This removes that worry and gives us a means to defend ourselves if Fraud is the only criteria they can use.
    "Being nice costs nothing and sometimes gets you extra bacon" - Pondlife.

  7. #17

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    I still don't understand why the Treasury office is working on this. Surely this should come under Dept Work and Pensions, who should create and run the CEST tool. Based on the outcome of that tool, HMRC etc would then get involved to collect the tax.

    Surely HMRC wouldn't want to mis-classify workers to get more tax? Massive conflict of interest here?

    This is what bothers me...

    It denies the taxpayer significant revenue for essential public services and perpetuates an unfairness between two individuals working in the same way, but paying different levels of tax.

    If two people are truly working in the same way, then surely the person being disadvantaged would change their working arrangement so as not to be disadvantaged. If they don't, then there must be an advantage that that 'disadvantaged' worker is benefiting from, and hence, by definition, is not working in the same way?
    Last edited by pacontracting; 27th February 2020 at 12:54.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
    The concern was though that HMRC would use an Inside determination by the client to challenge *any* move from outside to inside regardless of what the contractor had done. This removes that worry and gives us a means to defend ourselves if Fraud is the only criteria they can use.
    That might have been your concern - mine was that you would be on the radar as HMRC adopted a scattergun approach of firing 100,000 letters and seeing who responds. Then ignore the 3,000 with responses from qualified experts and chase everyone else...

    Now I really didn't expect anyone on here to have a problem but I really do expect an awful lot of others would...
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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by pacontracting View Post
    I still don't understand why the Treasury office is working on this. Surely this should come under Dept Work and Pensions, who should create and run the CEST tool. Based on the outcome of that tool, HMRC etc would then get involved to collect the tax.

    Surely HMRC wouldn't want to mis-classify workers to get more tax? Massive conflict of interest here?
    This isn't even all of HMRC - that's the bit everyone misses. This is the Employer NI part of HMRC.....
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  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by pacontracting View Post
    I still don't understand why the Treasury office is working on this. Surely this should come under Dept Work and Pensions, who should create and run the CEST tool. Based on the outcome of that tool, HMRC etc would then get involved to collect the tax.
    Ah, the CEST tool.

    Consider the irony. The point at which it has finally become, if not perfect then, useful is the point at which it is all but redundant as the client estate decide just Not to use PSCs.

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