Wow, I mean just so little effort on the website. Wow, I mean just so little effort on the website. - Page 2
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  1. #11

    bored now

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    Quote Originally Posted by cojak View Post
    I didn't mean that - I meant that +90% of contractors won't be allowed to go outside of IR35 in the first place!

    The remaining -10% already know how to deal with RoS.
    I do wonder why people don't research the market and so end up working on and creating solutions for problems that are about to disappear.
    Last edited by eek; 7th October 2020 at 14:47.
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to respond Ben.

    But, like so many people who have tried to create an income from the IT contracting eco-system, your solution has one huge gaping hole in it - it completely ignores the end client who is paying the contractor.

    It might be a legal solution, but I can't see how its anything other than a solution for a problem that does not exist in anything other than a niche set of circumstances.

    I wish you all the best.

    Hi Paralytic,

    I have another company, Konvergent, which is a specialist Architecture Consulting business, so I know what it takes to run an authentic consulting engagement. One of the reasons behind the idea of The Sub Bench, was that Konvergent has a Design Studio which has been used by numerous clients on their internal projects and also for Konvergent consulting gigs.

    The level of engagement from senior stakeholders when the Design Studio redesigned a tired, dull, complex and boxy diagram into something visually appealing was amazing. Heads of functions that were previously failing to land their messages were, and this is what we are bringing to the contracting community. Too many contractors forget about presenting their message. The end client does win from this, certainly far more than a like for like substitute, who would be dropped into a project for a couple of weeks and have no idea what is going on for that period. Where is the benefit to the client in that?

    If you don’t think the design is essential, I will mention one company; Apple. They were going bankrupt in the late 1990s before Jony Ive designed the iMac. Same functionality but so, so much better looking. I think they did okay after that! I would be more than happy to discuss this with you over the phone, so please drop me a note and we can arrange a call.

    Regards
    Ben

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by cojak View Post
    I didn't mean that - I meant that +90% of contractors won't be allowed to go outside of IR35 in the first place!

    The remaining -10% already know how to deal with RoS.
    Hi Cojak,

    IR35 for clients is all about risk mitigation. If that risk can be removed, then there is no reason, if the due care and attention are paid to each individual case why they won’t be ruled outside. Saying 90% of contractors will be ruled inside is an arbitrary figure – though if you can reference it, I would be very interested. I would also strongly disagree about the 10% that understand substation. I have been working with contractors for 20 years and have only known one person who has managed it. A contractual clause is not enough now; you have to prove it.

    I can understand the disillusionment that surrounds the market right now. It does feel that that current government is out to get contractors and the self employed in general. Considering the Conservatives should be the party of social mobility, it is quite an about-turn. Going through the solution with people takes a lot of time as it is a new concept, but at the end of it, there is a eureka moment for everyone. With the law currently how it is, substitution is critical. We cannot control factors like blanket bans, but we can help those whose client’s will have a lot more flexibility. I know from speaking to all of my client’s at Konvergent how open people are to the idea. Again, like contractors, it takes a few days to digest, but the push back has been minimum. I would be more than happy to discuss this with you over the phone, so please drop me a note, and we can arrange a call.

    Thanks
    Ben

  4. #14

    Contractor Among Contractors

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sub Bench View Post
    Hi Cojak,

    IR35 for clients is all about risk mitigation. If that risk can be removed, then there is no reason, if the due care and attention are paid to each individual case why they won’t be ruled outside. Saying 90% of contractors will be ruled inside is an arbitrary figure – though if you can reference it, I would be very interested. I would also strongly disagree about the 10% that understand substation. I have been working with contractors for 20 years and have only known one person who has managed it. A contractual clause is not enough now; you have to prove it.

    I can understand the disillusionment that surrounds the market right now. It does feel that that current government is out to get contractors and the self employed in general. Considering the Conservatives should be the party of social mobility, it is quite an about-turn. Going through the solution with people takes a lot of time as it is a new concept, but at the end of it, there is a eureka moment for everyone. With the law currently how it is, substitution is critical. We cannot control factors like blanket bans, but we can help those whose client’s will have a lot more flexibility. I know from speaking to all of my client’s at Konvergent how open people are to the idea. Again, like contractors, it takes a few days to digest, but the push back has been minimum. I would be more than happy to discuss this with you over the phone, so please drop me a note, and we can arrange a call.

    Thanks
    Ben
    HR: Boss, we might have a problem with these new IR35 rules: the liability sits with us.
    Boss: Eh? **** it, put all the contractors on FTCs.
    HR: What if they won't transfer to FTC?
    Boss: Bin them. Get another warm body that will.

    Risk mitigated.

    Next...
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  5. #15

    bored now

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    Ben

    Most of the contractors on this website have been contractors for years, a lot of the older ones started the PCG that become the IPSE and I personally fought a lot over the expenses changes that were done a few years back. You aren't posting on a site full of people who wish to be contractors, you are posting on a site full of battle weary veterans who have seen this all before.

    Your issue is that we've seen what you are trying to do, attempted many times before and they ALWAYS fail because they solve a problem that isn't actually a real issue - as at the end of a day in a Tax Tribunal the only thing that will matter is that the end client agrees with the contractor. And at the moment the end client has no skin in the game so may help out but a lot of tribunals are lost when the end client says well actually we wouldn't accept a substitute and your solution does not solve that issue.

    And come April the issue is no longer the contractors issue, the issue is belongs to the end client and HMRC will be going into every case (having picked the worst possible example for the client) and asking for x,000 other cases to be added as soon as they win the case. That is why end clients are going towards inside IR35 contracts because the getting a coffee side conversations have explained what any sane client should be doing.
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sub Bench View Post
    <sales pitch>
    All very good - I also used Apple as an example of why design is important when I ran my own consultancy (rather than contracting).

    But, nothing you said changes what I believe: the service you are offering to other contractors is not something their clients will see any value in. The clients don't want a substitute coming in a drawing design boxes (unless that's what their contractor did) - they want they person they hired and if they're not available, they'll work around the availability or find someone else themselves.

    I really do hope you prove me wrong - all entrepreneurship's to be celebrated; but I doubt this will add anything other than some additional small revenue stream to your consultancy.
    Last edited by Paralytic; 9th October 2020 at 09:32.

  7. #17

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    I do sometimes wonder how companies are started without the most basic understanding of the market in which they’re operating. This is a non-solution to a non-issue. The test is a RoS that is not unreasonably fettered. There are plenty of template words available. Either those words reflect reality or they don’t. If the client is completely onboard with substitution, then they can complete the worthless CEST for you and sign it.

    From next April, however, the risk is on the fee payer and, ultimately, on the client (where they differ). As noted above, the outside IR35 market will be a small fraction of the total market, which will rebalance to FTCs, permies and umbrellas (not even inside gigs because that creates unnecessary risk), and there will be no need for the bloated IR35 industry anymore, especially for the weakest re-flogged horse ideas, like this one.

  8. #18

    I live on CUK

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    Quote Originally Posted by cojak View Post
    RoS - bloody hell, have we gone back to 2015 or something?

    There's bigger problems with IR35 than proving RoS...
    RoS has been solved by YourCo subbing to to a Dutch Antilles sub-contracting solution who then places You back into the original Client site.
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  9. #19

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    With new ir35 changes companies are going to decide before they engage with you whether the role is inside or outside and there will be very minimal scope to change their mind.

    This also isn't substitution but rather subcontracting a piece of work which does help with ir35 when you subcontract a component but we all already knew that and we could get higher quality design (you should work on your portfolio) work done for way cheaper from any of the hundreds of offshore designer aggregator websites and achieve the same outcome as far as ir35 is concerned.

    I think you'd have a hard time telling your client this is a substitution.. you'd have to say "hey for the next 2 days I am going to get sub bench to work remotely on changing the fonts on my process document and putting in pink headers and charge you my full day rate"

  10. #20

    Some things in Moderation

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    Honestly, we do wish you luck Ben.

    Just with someone else’s contract.
    "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
    - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...

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