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  1. Replies
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    I agree that the pension contribution creates a...

    I agree that the pension contribution creates a tax deduction.

    I do not agree that it reduces NIC unless as mentioned above you are in some form of salary sacrifice arrangement.

    I do think that...
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    Ah I see. Your assumption is that the payment...

    Ah I see.

    Your assumption is that the payment from the end client/agency - inside IR35 - is going to the PSC and that there is an obligation upon the PSC to make deductions.

    However the PSC has...
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    And how does an employee offset NIC by making a...

    And how does an employee offset NIC by making a pension contribution?
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    The start date is earlier than you think

    There was a discussion on another thread about the meaning of "payment" in the context of the new legislation. Although I assumed that general principles regarding that word as used in taxation would...
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    I've worked in tax a long time and confess that...

    I've worked in tax a long time and confess that "horizontal equity" is a phrase I've not come across.

    If I understand the principle though you're discussing treating people equally.

    That is a...
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    Jesse Norman and loan charge

    Mr Norman, Financial Secretary to the Treasury, aka "Minister of Tax", is today giving evidence to the House of Lords.

    He has said that where loans etc have been fully disclosed and/or years...
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    Why does everything have to come back to a case...

    Why does everything have to come back to a case 17 years old?

    We have now heard, ad nauseum, about your case and its claimed effects. Well done and congratulations.

    It is however not relevant...
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    HMRC use case law where it is relevant to tax...

    HMRC use case law where it is relevant to tax statute. In many instances tax statute stays the same - words, intent and meaning - for decades and therefore a case heard when the law was young holds...
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    You may have a view that it is "revealing", but...

    You may have a view that it is "revealing", but it is a view without evidence.

    Again, your personal history is irrelevant. Well done on winning, but it's ancient history.

    I would opine (just an...
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    You cannot possibly know that HMRC settled out of...

    You cannot possibly know that HMRC settled out of court "because" of the negative publicity. That is speculation and as I said, there may be lots of other reasons. One commentator says the ET may...
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    There is no "Winchester case". The claim...

    There is no "Winchester case".

    The claim brought by Winchester was settled out of Court and the only commentary we have is from the potential claimant and those who put the case together. Both...
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    A lot of the above is "old think" and far too...

    A lot of the above is "old think" and far too historical and personal to have much relevance in the real world.

    In that real world, HMRC will have its hands full with cases where the IR35 position...
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    Yes they did because IR35 was new then and the...

    Yes they did because IR35 was new then and the challenge was about whether the legislation, cutting across what was then the Sch E/Sch D divide was effectively new tax law that Parliament has not...
  14. Really don't think HMRC need to add people to a...

    Really don't think HMRC need to add people to a list that is already more than they can handle and the marginal gain for them (a few months worth of salary that may have escaped a few percentage...
  15. Replies
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    The contractor cannot "prove" they have an...

    The contractor cannot "prove" they have an outside IR35 contract. All he/she can do is present evidence to a Judge and ask they Judge to make a decision.

    That in turn depends on their actually...
  16. I agree that a literal interpretation would...

    I agree that a literal interpretation would perhaps gather more tax, but I'm struggling with the effect that exercise would have.
  17. No I cannot point to anything other than general...

    No I cannot point to anything other than general principles.

    I'm assuming that in the public sector payments lag behind services performed by at least as much as private sector?

    Therefore...
  18. Replies
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    I think the problem is that Client Co is is...

    I think the problem is that Client Co is is saying that there are no employment rights, because - absent the tax laws imposed upon by HMRC - there is no employment. There is a contract/payment...
  19. A reasonable position and one that may well be...

    A reasonable position and one that may well be the way in which HMRC views the issue.

    My take on this - in the absence of any explanation worth anything - is that the sections you quote deal with...
  20. Any BG members reading this, please see the...

    Any BG members reading this, please see the resources section of the forum.

    Any non members you will need to get advance and get organised.

    This is mainly a legal matter although it does have...
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    Correct, the legislation deals with...

    Correct, the legislation deals with intermediaries.

    In the vast majority of instances this is a PSC (because these interposed a legal entity between individual and client co) and both parties...
  22. Articles, blogs, pieces of interest on IR35 reform

    At the risk of breaching some rules, I'll start the ball rolling with a piece I wrote that appeared on our blog a little earlier today.

    Any more?

    Finance Bill 2019-20: IR35 Off payroll working...
  23. Replies
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    At the second C, why are there reports saying the...

    At the second C, why are there reports saying the working relationship is one of employee/employer?

    Surely they are saying that the relationship FOR TAX PURPOSES is the payments made should be...
  24. Replies
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    Being inside IR35 does NOT require use of an...

    Being inside IR35 does NOT require use of an umbrella.

    If you are inside then the deemed "employer" - at the moment your PSC, post reform the fee payer - is required to deduct tax etc.

    There...
  25. Replies
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    And says what? If he says to an ET Judge, my...

    And says what?

    If he says to an ET Judge, my [end client] thinks I should be taxed at the equivalent rate as an employee, can I please therefore have the same rights, what might a Judge say?

    Q....
  26. Replies
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    I was repeating a point that I've been making for...

    I was repeating a point that I've been making for a long time now, that the "old think" of having a contract that says many things about the role and how it's performed which if measured on its own...
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    I disagree with the above. I'm not maligning...

    I disagree with the above.

    I'm not maligning QDOS and from what I see they are a professional, careful and prudent organisation.

    However, unless senior management is willing to make changes to...
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    Where the end client is "small" then the...

    Where the end client is "small" then the contractor has to decide their own IR35 status and take their own risk on that decision.

    Just be aware that having or not having a PSC makes very little...
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    I think this thread has run its course and has...

    I think this thread has run its course and has descended into a pi$$ing contest.

    I'll ask the mods to close it.
  30. Replies
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    Perhaps we need to be a little more precise about...

    Perhaps we need to be a little more precise about what "blanket" means.

    The Civil Services (public sector) and many large similar organisations tend to have a rigid system of grading the jobs in...
  31. Replies
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    The rules in the FB and policy papers etc all say...

    The rules in the FB and policy papers etc all say that the dispute process will start when a client decides that you are inside (or outside) and you disagree. There has to be a "client led"...
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    Some interesting thoughts above which in my mind...

    Some interesting thoughts above which in my mind at least do not always quite appreciate that what we are seeing is a revolution, not an evolution.

    There still seems to be a view that an external...
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    No, my remarks are addressed to you both. I'd...

    No, my remarks are addressed to you both.

    I'd rather this thread stuck to the point.
  34. Replies
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    Perhaps not. However I have been working...

    Perhaps not.

    However I have been working with/against HMRC for over 40 years, have assisted perhaps thousands of clients, dealt with many HMRC campaigns and have spent pretty much every working...
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    I agree it seems simple and sensible. I believe...

    I agree it seems simple and sensible. I believe France has something not a million miles away.

    In the UK, I cannot see the Government funding that sort of idea unless it becomes a statutory...
  36. Replies
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    You are entitled to that view of course and he is...

    You are entitled to that view of course and he is entitled to disagree.

    However, this thread is not a vehicle for personal spats or points scoring and I'd respectfully request that you both take...
  37. Replies
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    No I do not wish to comment on personal comments...

    No I do not wish to comment on personal comments passed between you.

    My view on IR35 is simple.

    It's here to stay; it will be extended further; we will see self employment abolished for all but...
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    I decided the second was unprofessional.

    I decided the second was unprofessional.
  39. Replies
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    In my view, the above is incorrect and could...

    In my view, the above is incorrect and could potentially lead some into a false strategy.

    HMRC takes cases to tribunal in pursuit of policy goals and cares nothing for past losses. Those losses...
  40. Replies
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    Can I suggest a couple of things here please? ...

    Can I suggest a couple of things here please?

    It seems to me that northernladuk and John the Bike have some form of spat going on for reasons I'm not aware of nor care to be aware of. It's none of...
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    I've said elsewhere that IR35 is here to stay. ...

    I've said elsewhere that IR35 is here to stay.

    It will get extended to small end clients.

    Then we will see tax law changes to remove self employment for all except very low earners (perhaps...
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    I started this thread thinking that if enough...

    I started this thread thinking that if enough contractors got their head around this issue and managed to see the bigger picture and be willing to lead and not be led, then there was a once in a...
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    Meanwhile, on Planet Real .... As has been...

    Meanwhile, on Planet Real ....

    As has been said elsewhere in this sub head of threads, the CUK posting community and the larger contracting community share little common ground when it comes to...
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    I'm sure that the above structures and many more...

    I'm sure that the above structures and many more are possible but the point of the post was more to demonstrate that end clients (we really need to have a lexicon of terms and names because I think...
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    There is very much a personal component to all of...

    There is very much a personal component to all of this and there will no "one size fits all" suit that everybody can wear.

    There are also a number of common elements that can be found in many...
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    I'm not being unkind and I say with all respect...

    I'm not being unkind and I say with all respect that you need to invest a couple of days in getting up to speed with all of this.

    DOTAS = disclosure of tax avoidance scheme.

    In the period you...
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    I suspect you are correct and that the end...

    I suspect you are correct and that the end clients will be doing something simple and honest, because that generates a risk they can understand and deal with.

    Where life will become interesting is...
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    HMM. We are seeing HMRC making enquiries now...

    HMM.

    We are seeing HMRC making enquiries now which start with "in 16/17 you were a contractor but in 17/18 you were classed as an employee. Please explain what differences there were between the...
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    I think some valid points there. End clients...

    I think some valid points there.

    End clients putting everybody "inside" IR35 will run a risk of them claiming employment benefits and any case going to Tribunal may pray in aid the tax decision. ...
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    You can find me and my company with any decent...

    You can find me and my company with any decent Google search.

    remember that other advisers are available.
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