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    the validity of any substitution clause is key in...

    the validity of any substitution clause is key in the CEST assessment and also in those of QDOS et al. So, the courts might not place the utmost of importance on it, but CEST and QDOS certainly do.
  2. excellent analysis.

    excellent analysis.
  3. yes, now it is. But in effect it's the same as...

    yes, now it is. But in effect it's the same as IR35. The contractor has to prove that they are independent.
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    my keyboard is old and doesn't work properly...

    my keyboard is old and doesn't work properly sometimes, just like me!:smile
  5. you know the story full well.

    you know the story full well.
  6. I've never claimed that. The situation many of us...

    I've never claimed that. The situation many of us find ourselves in was created entirely by the clients for their advantage. It is human nature to make the best of any situation we find ourselves in,...
  7. they tried and lost!:smile

    they tried and lost!:smile
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    that's HMRC's (and their moles) take on it. But...

    that's HMRC's (and their moles) take on it. But OK, point me to any case where the judge ruled the substitution clause as a sham and threw it out and then judged the individual as an employee.
  9. yes, it was always designed to hit us and no one...

    yes, it was always designed to hit us and no one else.

    however, the principle of any person working in an employment type role being taxed as an employee existed before IR35. A friend (yes I do...
  10. it's not about what taxes are paid or how they...

    it's not about what taxes are paid or how they are paid, it's about the actual employment status determining what taxes are due and how they are paid. In that context, I contend that a sole trader...
  11. clearly I (Edward VIII mode) don't agree with...

    clearly I (Edward VIII mode) don't agree with you, for reasons that I've highlighted previously.
  12. yes, we are all mostly aware of the differences,...

    yes, we are all mostly aware of the differences, but what about my contention that a sole trader working for a client in an employee like way, if any one does, should be classed as an employee for...
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    thanks "Judge Dean acknowledged that there was...

    thanks

    "Judge Dean acknowledged that there was some restriction on the right of substitution but was satisfied that the clause pointed away from an employment contract. Interestingly, she gave no...
  14. accepted, but surely that is the crux of the...

    accepted, but surely that is the crux of the issue. If employment status is used to determine IR35 liability, then surely the same rules should apply to sole traders. It's not the commercial...
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    wouldn't that be a great story if it were true!

    wouldn't that be a great story if it were true!
  16. Surely it's not about avoiding tax, is about...

    Surely it's not about avoiding tax, is about whether or not the relationship and the engagement is one of employment? So I contend that it is theoretically possible to be a sole trader working for a...
  17. yes, but let's investigate the underlying issues....

    yes, but let's investigate the underlying issues. The whole debate around IR35 has been about individuals who were in reality working as employees, whatever commercial framework that they were...
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    we are fast moving to the point where we will...

    we are fast moving to the point where we will only believe what we see and experience ourselves, given all these conspiracy theories. Lucy Worsey's programs on the great American fibs are worth...
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    50 years for me shortly! But Alice Roberts would...

    50 years for me shortly! But Alice Roberts would do something for me!
  20. how could "Points of View" ever be credible?...

    how could "Points of View" ever be credible? Presented on the BBC by BBC employees. Bizarre!
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    bromide in your tea

    bromide in your tea
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    that would do nothing to quell the primeval...

    that would do nothing to quell the primeval desires. They can be unrequited you know!
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    I can't find an IT related one. The Autoclenz...

    I can't find an IT related one. The Autoclenz case wasn't really typical of our industry. I can find one which ruled the opposite way though, i.e. the contractual right of substitution over ruled the...
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    how are we mortal males supposed to control our...

    how are we mortal males supposed to control our primeval desires when faced with any of these ladies?:smile
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    We are told that there are approx. 11000 + deaths...

    We are told that there are approx. 11000 + deaths from flu and related issues each year in the UK. However, only the most serious cases are confined to bed in hospital. We are told that Coronavirus...
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    and who pray was that? did you attend the...

    and who pray was that?

    did you attend the court hearing and did you read the judgement? Come on, I'm intrigued as to how you've formed your opinion.
  27. I would tend to agree. Being someone's employee...

    I would tend to agree. Being someone's employee at the very least could mean that they could ask you to undertake tasks which you were not required to undertake as a contractor. If I became an...
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    Cas law surrounding substitution

    Is there any case law surrounding substitution where a contractual right of substitution, however fettered, was not accepted by any court, and declared a sham?
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    Poll: what's that?:D

    what's that?:D
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    only the gullible would so succumb. However,...

    only the gullible would so succumb. However, given his FOI campaign, I would say he's having more of an effect on the issues that IPSE is, who have claimed for many years that they are influencing...
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    He is in contact with people on the ground....

    He is in contact with people on the ground. Perhaps he is being fed opinions and incorrect information. I know he's been given what appears to be incorrect information about my client. I'm trying to...
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    for all his faults, with his FOI requests, he has...

    for all his faults, with his FOI requests, he has published more information than IPSE ever did. He doesn't have to maintain a seat at the table, so he can be as confrontational as he pleases.
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    it is General, so everything is allowed! even...

    it is General, so everything is allowed! even trolling!
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    just my own experiences.

    just my own experiences.
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    OK, but for reasons that I can't determine, the...

    OK, but for reasons that I can't determine, the search facility isn't working for me today, when it has in the past. It's not even picking up any of my posts, let alone those that I search for with a...
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    well, I didn't in the past, but it doesn't seem...

    well, I didn't in the past, but it doesn't seem to be working today.
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    I was referring to the search facility on these...

    I was referring to the search facility on these fora.
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    unfortunately, it's sport for some on here. But...

    unfortunately, it's sport for some on here. But as was often said on Dad's army, "they don't like it up them, Mr. Mainwaring".
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    he is still trying and may be making more headway...

    he is still trying and may be making more headway than IPSE ever did or are ever likely to. Sometimes, these issues take some time to bear fruit.
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    they already know about it, it's in the...

    they already know about it, it's in the Parliamentary Solicitor's archives!:laugh
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    actually it would help if the search facility...

    actually it would help if the search facility worked.
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    well, when senior police officers, judges,...

    well, when senior police officers, judges, barristers, solicitors and senior civil servants etc. are allowed to be members of secret societies, then clearly there is the opportunity for corruption....
  43. I seem to remember that the English really do...

    I seem to remember that the English really do like Welsh lamb!:laugh
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    your own assessment indicated to me that the...

    your own assessment indicated to me that the market might level out in future. So I'm guessing that your opinion is correct.
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    I've been saying for years that the UK is just as...

    I've been saying for years that the UK is just as corrupt as any banana republic, but it's done more covertly through secret societies etc.
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    possibly at the moment, but who knows in the long...

    possibly at the moment, but who knows in the long term. If clients begin to suffer from the commercial reality of not being able to source the expertise they require, would they then begin to create...
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    but then in this case, could there be a conflict...

    but then in this case, could there be a conflict of interests?
  48. there was a relatively small protest at the...

    there was a relatively small protest at the Senedd reported on BBC Wales last night and it was the main article. Given that no one outside of the area concerned would be interested in the core issue,...
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    NLUK?

    NLUK?
  50. which is what I expected, despite NLUK's cryptic...

    which is what I expected, despite NLUK's cryptic remarks of my post claiming so.
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