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  1. They will certainly use nudge letters in this...

    They will certainly use nudge letters in this scenario but will probably fail in actual cases at the same rate they fail at tribunal currently (so 50% or whatever). This is mainly a target rich...
  2. Not sure you’re following this. If there’s a UK...

    Not sure you’re following this. If there’s a UK entity anywhere in the supply chain above the PSC, then that entity is the Fee Payer. There’s no clever wheeze involving overseas supply chains. Either...
  3. Perhaps I misread the intention of your OP...

    Perhaps I misread the intention of your OP though. Anyway, BAU, no exemptions from IR35.
  4. That isn’t what they’re proposing. The small...

    That isn’t what they’re proposing. The small company provisions aka BAU will apply to fully overseas supply chains. The PSC remains responsible and liable. Obviously, we await the amended draft...
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    (With interest)

    (With interest)
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    I could set you up at my new agency,...

    I could set you up at my new agency, SThreePointFive, providing you like gladiators and have some experience bleeding radiators.
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    Yeah :laugh Likewise. It’s practically very...

    Yeah :laugh

    Likewise. It’s practically very hard to be inside w/ an overseas client anyway. Would’ve been nice to be irrelevant in principle, but it changes nothing really.
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    BAU for fully overseas supply chains. Shame about...

    BAU for fully overseas supply chains. Shame about that, but it makes sense.
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    Physically, yes. Psychologically, the (mostly...

    Physically, yes. Psychologically, the (mostly remain supporting) bedwetter demographic will be beside themselves.

    First indication will be a shortage of quinoa at Wimbledon Waitrose.
  10. No matter how you look at it, the risk associated...

    No matter how you look at it, the risk associated with an outside contract post-April is substantially lower than the risk pre-April because the entire supply chain has a vested interest in defending...
  11. No concerns, providing you have the actual SDS...

    No concerns, providing you have the actual SDS before you start. Yes, the liability falls on the supply chain above YourCo.
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    I don’t think there’s any general solution for a...

    I don’t think there’s any general solution for a majority of today’s contracting market that looks like this. If you’re a specialist (by which I mean that there are tens or hundreds of people like...
  13. You're overthinking this IMHO. Accept the new...

    You're overthinking this IMHO. Accept the new contract. You were outside before, as evidenced (ahem) and you're still outside. The contractual terms are just window dressing anyway. What matters is...
  14. Right, and the paper trail is also most...

    Right, and the paper trail is also most propitious to identifying the filthy tax avoider. Outside-to-inside at the same client and agency under the same hypothetical contract is the ripest of ripe...
  15. Yeah, that's going to be a fully outsourced...

    Yeah, that's going to be a fully outsourced service, so either the client's client has made a pointless request or they want to control the supply chain in a much more aggressive way (i.e., "no...
  16. Oh, and if your client's client is one of a small...

    Oh, and if your client's client is one of a small number of big companies that are enforcing no PSCs anywhere in the supply chain, then you're stuffed, but this is the exception rather than the rule....
  17. On the face of it, this points very strongly...

    On the face of it, this points very strongly towards an outsourced supply of services so, taken at face value, I think your client's client is a clueless muppet. Then again, they got your name from...
  18. Agree, it would need to be something very...

    Agree, it would need to be something very different, not roughly the same thing in roughly the same way (and, honestly, I doubt it is something different, because the OP is arguing for things like "a...
  19. Arguably, going from outside to inside under the...

    Arguably, going from outside to inside under the same hypothetical contract is both of those things. I wouldn't want to be the one testing it!
  20. There's an "NW are crap" thread around here...

    There's an "NW are crap" thread around here somewhere. Although, TBF, most large accountants have a thread like that...
  21. Eh? Why would an IR35 compliance check be...

    Eh? Why would an IR35 compliance check be interested in your PAYE employment, in the first instance (they might later, but only as context)? The whole point is to establish your WP under a...
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    Or in suity's case, adapt.

    Or in suity's case, adapt.
  23. Yeah, it was ambiguous. But hopefully we've set...

    Yeah, it was ambiguous. But hopefully we've set them straight on that. Continuing with a different tax treatment under the same hypothetical contract would be nuts.
  24. Then you've done your due diligence, well done....

    Then you've done your due diligence, well done. You're also walking (I assume). Beyond collecting actual evidence about your WPs, there's nothing more to do (except hope for the best).
  25. But it does so no more effectively than the...

    But it does so no more effectively than the contract, and considerably less so than evidence about actual WPs.

    The contract states the historical relationship, together with the actual working...
  26. WiB, that sort of statement is going to be mostly...

    WiB, that sort of statement is going to be mostly worthless in building a hypothetical contract at tribunal. The point of a CoA is to clarify/add flavour to the contractual terms w/r to the various...
  27. Sure, that's what I responded to. Why would they...

    Sure, that's what I responded to. Why would they bother? Hint: they wouldn't. It won't reduce their risk (it would actually increase their risk if they weren't binning PSCs altogether).
  28. Why would they at this point? There's nothing in...

    Why would they at this point? There's nothing in it for them.

    It's best to get a CoA when you have leverage, i.e., towards the start of a contract, shortly after the WP become clear. Also, the...
  29. Neither did I. Did I miss something about your...

    Neither did I. Did I miss something about your question?
  30. Yes, on the target. On the transfer of debt, I...

    Yes, on the target. On the transfer of debt, I don't know about "highly likely", because it's untested, but more likely, certainly.
  31. Except you’re not really interested. You have an...

    Except you’re not really interested. You have an opinion, probably one related to your own special circumstances, and you’re hoping for the best. What case law did you expect for legislation that...
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    Well, special production. I think it’s the same...

    Well, special production. I think it’s the same reason you can buy boxes of sherbet dips, cola bottles and assorted other sweets from the 80s and 90s. There’s a market among the 40-50 somethings who...
  33. What is pure conjecture? That you've accepted...

    What is pure conjecture? That you've accepted working as an effective permie under the same terms you worked as a contractor?

    :rollin:

    Seriously, good luck.

    You do understand that the whole...
  34. No, I think I am roughly as cynical. :D I haven't...

    No, I think I am roughly as cynical. :D I haven't heard any politicians talk about a go-slow on enforcement until then, so it's interesting from that POV; but, I also don't think politicians will be...
  35. Politically? Politically, the easiest thing to do...

    Politically? Politically, the easiest thing to do is something that has limited scope and is simple, such as increased dividend taxation (focused to avoid pensioners). Beyond that, everything else is...
  36. You're kidding yourself. If you move from...

    You're kidding yourself.

    If you move from outside to inside without a significant change in WPs, you are literally saying "I accept that I was inside all along", even if you are explicitly...
  37. Hmmm. Most interesting part of that is the...

    Hmmm. Most interesting part of that is the reference to not being "heavy handed" in the first year of implementation, which is contrary to the noises coming direct from HMRC.

    What HMRC just told...
  38. There are degrees of change. Addressing the...

    There are degrees of change. Addressing the imbalances between employment and tax law is a fundamental change that would require a massive majority and a gov't focused on that (if that's what you...
  39. Right, the UK is thick-as-mince in this area of...

    Right, the UK is thick-as-mince in this area of policy, as in some others. Our civil service just doesn't understand the sunk cost fallacy and prefers to double down on thick-as-mince because it is...
  40. Mostly the abuse is just ignorance. I have...

    Mostly the abuse is just ignorance. I have nothing against contractors paying more tax as a policy decision (I would prefer to pay less, but hey ho, this is a democracy :D). However, IR35 has always...
  41. After a year? :laugh It should've become clear...

    After a year? :laugh

    It should've become clear to you after a couple of weeks whether the contract reflected reality. Either it did or it didn't. If the reality of the WPs only stopped reflecting...
  42. You should've known that you looked like a client...

    You should've known that you looked like a client permie way before that.



    Refuse, which ends in one of two ways.



    Refuse, which ends in one of two ways.
  43. OK, fairplay. Don't waste your money on suing...

    OK, fairplay.

    Don't waste your money on suing the agency for breach of contract though. Either the working practices changed very gradually and you allowed that (no case to answer) or you failed...
  44. You know the status now, so you should pay the...

    You know the status now, so you should pay the taxes due as you understand them to be now.

    Are you going to?
  45. Yes, I'm afraid so, and you chalk it up to...

    Yes, I'm afraid so, and you chalk it up to failing to have a better contract and to determine sooner that the terms were being broken. There is no plausible deniability with a year plus under the...
  46. It's not a separate discussion when you're found...

    It's not a separate discussion when you're found to be inside, which was the whole point of the quote to which I replied ("who cares, they won't recover the money anyway"). :D

    You think that...
  47. That is completely irrelevant to what you owe in...

    That is completely irrelevant to what you owe in taxes, because the responsibility is yours. The agency can say anything knowing full well that the responsibility is yours, and now you’re screwed....
  48. Taking your post at face value, you should now...

    Taking your post at face value, you should now pay all taxes due or cross your fingers. You are freely admitting that your status determination, which was your responsibility, was wrong. You could’ve...
  49. The barrier to transfer of debt to the individual...

    The barrier to transfer of debt to the individual is reasonable care. Yes, if the contract was outside before, then it is unlikely that HMRC will win, but you still need to undergo the stress and...
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    That makes me want to break the +2 and +3 out the...

    That makes me want to break the +2 and +3 out the loft. :D
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