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Thread: Taylor Review

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by matzie View Post
    In the Draft Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/p...dTextAnchor048) there's a lot that doesn't sound too bad for us, such as the inclusion of these factors in determining status:

    (a) whether the contract places an obligation on the individual to perform work personally;
    (b)whether the other party to the contract retains the potential to control to a substantial degree how the individual’s work will be carried out in relation factors such as:
    (i) disciplining the individual;
    (ii) the activities to be carried out;
    (iii) the order in which activities are to be carried out;
    (iv) the equipment or products to be used in carrying out the activities;
    (v) the rate of pay for the activities;
    (vi) where the work will be carried out;
    (vii) how the activities will be carried out; and
    (viii) the hours during which the work is to be carried out.
    (c) whether the individual is integrated into the other party to the contract’s business;
    (d) whether the other party to the contract provides tools or equipment;
    (e) the degree of financial risk undertaken by the individual; and
    (f) whether the individual is prohibited from working for others during the contract.

    and

    (a) whether the individual assumes responsibility for the success or failure of his business;
    (b) whether the individual can hire others at their own expense;
    (c) whether the individual has the ability to determine the manner in which the services are carried out;
    (d) whether the individual actively markets their services;
    (e) whether the individual can negotiate and set the price for their services; or
    (f) whether the individual is responsible for their own indemnity cover or public liability insurance”.

    I think a CEST based on those criteria would be ok.
    These seem like entirley sensible definitons on employment vs. contracting.

    Hence the will never see the light of day in any HMRC tool

  2. #32

    Faqqed Off

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    Quote Originally Posted by matzie View Post
    In the Draft Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/p...dTextAnchor048) there's a lot that doesn't sound too bad for us, such as the inclusion of these factors in determining status:

    (a) whether the contract places an obligation on the individual to perform work personally;
    (b)whether the other party to the contract retains the potential to control to a substantial degree how the individual’s work will be carried out in relation factors such as:
    (i) disciplining the individual;
    (ii) the activities to be carried out;
    (iii) the order in which activities are to be carried out;
    (iv) the equipment or products to be used in carrying out the activities;
    (v) the rate of pay for the activities;
    (vi) where the work will be carried out;
    (vii) how the activities will be carried out; and
    (viii) the hours during which the work is to be carried out.
    (c) whether the individual is integrated into the other party to the contract’s business;
    (d) whether the other party to the contract provides tools or equipment;
    (e) the degree of financial risk undertaken by the individual; and
    (f) whether the individual is prohibited from working for others during the contract.

    and

    (a) whether the individual assumes responsibility for the success or failure of his business;
    (b) whether the individual can hire others at their own expense;
    (c) whether the individual has the ability to determine the manner in which the services are carried out;
    (d) whether the individual actively markets their services;
    (e) whether the individual can negotiate and set the price for their services; or
    (f) whether the individual is responsible for their own indemnity cover or public liability insurance”.

    I think a CEST based on those criteria would be ok.
    Still misses MoO completely from the definition.
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFaQQer View Post
    Still misses MoO completely from the definition.
    Agreed but, since they're proposing a new statutory definition, they can choose whatever case law (or not) they prefer, and new case law will emerge from the new statute. I think a statutory definition makes sense, and is somewhat likely (although more likely to get kicked into the long grass), inline with what IPSE has said, but it's unlikely that RoS and MoO will feature much, if at all (indeed, Taylor was explicitly arguing for the former to be downgraded). There may be elements of MoO that are simpler to include (e.g. evidence that work has been offered and declined or not offered), but there are many more (measurable) indicators of D&C, so it isn't surprising they'd focus on that.

  4. #34

    bored now

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    Given a new definition and so a new start for case law it will focus on the areas where Hmrc wins points in tax tribunals (direction and control) and remove the bits where Hmrc tend to lose the cases on (substitution and mutual obligation).

    Given that there are already employment contracts where mutual obligation hardly exists (zero hour contractors for one) I can’t see there being much pushback there.

    I expect it’s going to turn out that asking for an actual definition does more harm than good
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  5. #35

  6. #36

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    The government has acted on all but one of Matthew Taylor’s 53 recommendations. It rejected his proposals to reduce the difference between the National Insurance contributions of employees and the self-employed following Budget 2016 and subsequently have no plans to revisit the issue.

  7. #37

    Default Contradictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by SueEllen View Post
    Rachel Reeves MP Labour (Leeds West) and Lord Taylor are currently on LBC lobbying for bringing the Taylor review into fruition.

    They want people to be labelled workers by default and leave it to the employer to prove otherwise.
    Its more so than that, there is a underlying movement that wants all corporate slaves, debt bondage, exploitation. The Taylor report in its own words is full of contradictions.

    "Tackling exploitation and the potential for exploitation at work". - I see that a lot of you need this review due to being exploited by your masters. At £250-£3k a day there is exploitation going on at an industrial level.

    "Increasing clarity in the law and helping people know and exercise their rights;" - Let us ignore written contracts which is the basis of our legal system and look through them and try and work out what really means, lets just do away with UK contacts completely. No contract really means what is written anyway, right ?

    "Over the longer term, aligning the incentives driving the nature of our labour market with our modern industrial strategy and broader national objectives" - we need corporate slaves post Brexit, this will help tackle those rouge elements in our labour market.

    HMRC never go after the 500k I would estimate undocumented builders, Gardners and other companies that are operating in the UK economy. Anyone who is legitimate is the easiest target, so lets just squeeze those compliant individuals some more. At the top end the hedge fund traders and the like squirrel away huge amounts offshore, never catch the eye of anyone. The large accountancy companies come up with super aggressive tax schemes, the Chinese sell goods to the Uk Vat, tax and duty free... but lets not worry about those, when we can squeeze the compliant individuals a lot more as they are easier targets and will just comply.

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